breakthroughs and attrition: why does it happen?

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Eugenioso

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it seems that practically every single thread in the forum makes reference to how blitzkrieg tactics dont work anymore, that the enemy is overpowered and that your own forces (most cases say german forces) are too weak to do anything else other than attack heavily defended positions. also i read somewhere about someone saying that tanks are "worthless". lets look a bit deeper into this.

when a unit in HOI2 attacked another unit, usually very few forces came from other manned fronts. maybe it was because the AI back then wasnt as advanced as the one in use in DH, but it meant that if you pushed hard in one sector, the enemy wouldnt reinforce it much and you could breach their frontline. this happened to all of us back in HOI2, in poland trapping 30 divs, in france trapping 40 divs in netherlands/belgium/north france, and destroying massive chunks of the russian army. however, this changed with DH.

in DH, when a sector gets attacked, the AI immediately sends units from all sectors to stop the advance. they will do everything in their power to hold that sector. unlike the passive HOI AI, the DH one actively reinforces all points that get attacked. also, the airforce takes a huge role in the game. enemy fighters scramble the air constantly, and bombers decimate attacking divisions. the result is a massive attrition battle that, even if won, wont bring about the destruction of the enemy army. this has led many to say that you cant make breakthroughs, but i say this is the epitome of achieving a breakthrough.

allow me to take the example of the manstein plan: instead of doing what the french expected, a simple attack through belgium, the germans began to push north, into netherlands, making the french think that it was a repetition of the schieff... schilf... the shiffsomething plan. they sent their forces north, and then the panzers attacked through the ardennes. the key to achieving a breakthrough there was attacking a sector and waiting for the enemy to reinforce it. when they did, and subsequently weakened other sectors, they opened themselves for an attack and breach through.

ingame, it is basically the same, following all the principles of the blitzkrieg: first, attack a sector or two. nothing particularly strong, but to draw enemy forces there, thereby weakening other sectors. then, strike.

alluding to what someone said about tanks before, they are the best breakthrough weapon. high hard and soft attack, low softness and good speed. use them to lead the attack into the enemy rear. and remember that the airforce is a key aspect of blitzkrieg; it is nigh on impossible to achieve one if you dont control the air. personally, i use tac's all the way and dont bother with CAS. during the critical starting days of a war, lets say barbarossa, my tacs are divided into 3 groups:

1.- ground attack rear enemy sectors

2.- ground support the key breakthrough point(s)

3.- ground attack units engaged in battles

the first is a great one to do if you have a few spare TAC's lying around. right after a war begins usually the entire enemy army scrambles to the front sector, usually in highly vulnerable small groups, ripe for air attack. this is tremendously helpful as you can eliminate or at least seriously damage a lot of units.

the second is the most important one. literally an hour after you begin your breakthrough offensive, order your tacs to ground support the province they are in. they will fly there and heavily de-organize the non-dug in forces present there. the key here is not to destroy them, the key is to make sure they cant fight.

the third is secondary, but still good. order a couple of TAC's to ground attack the enemy units that are either retreating or attacking your own units. attacking units lose all dug in bonuses, and are especially vulnerable to air attacks. retreating units also suffer a lot from running away while under air attack.

(note: i dont have anything against CAS, so if you prefer to use them, do so. they will probably lack the range to attack rear provinces, but they can ground attack retreating or attacking units better than tacs. again, its just my personal preference. CAS are not bad, i just dont use them)

lets look at a hypothetical scenario during barbarossa:

i have 30 inf divs in the southern border with russia, along with 12 armored divs, 12 motorized divs, one HQ, a few fighters and a lot of TAC's. first step is to look for the lure attack, the place to draw enemy divisions to. i choose premizyl, as it borders 4 of my provinces. the breach point will be lutsk. it is bordering with a river, so crossing it might be difficult, but the tacs will soften them up. i use 12 inf divs, 3 in each border province with premyzl, and attack. at the same time i order around half of my tacs to ground attack the enemy rear, so enemy reinforcements suffer large casualties. a week into the attack into premz, the russians keep reinforcing it. my tacs reveal that the enemy rear, heavily bombed, is mostly clear and i see a clear route to the black sea right behind odessa. lutzk had 12 divs guarding it, now it is down to 4. the battle of premz continues and neither side gains an advantage. after 2 weeks, the enemy has 30 divs guarding premz, and they have no reserves in the rear. at dawn, i strike. 4am and my panzers and motorized divs attack. 5am and my airforce ground supports the ground forces. in 2 days the battle is over and lutzk is mine.i leave 3 motorized divs there and keep moving. then i see a problem. enemy divs now cover the 3 provinces between me and the black sea. i order my tacs formerly ground attacking the enemy rear to do ground support of the sectors behind in support of my tanks. the tanks break through the weakened enemy formations and reach the black sea. i order the attack into premz to stop. my infantry now begins to hold the captured provinces. i order all of my tacs to begin bombing convoys in the black sea. the result: 50 divs trapped, 7 of them armored.

of course, just because you want to do a distraction doesnt mean it should be in one sector. taking the example just given above, you can also launch an attack into lomza. it also borders 4 provinces, so you can have a tactical advantage there and draw a very large number of forces there.



in conclusion, a breakthrough in the game is indeed very possible, but you have to know how to do it first in order to achieve it.
 
Tbh I think the problem is with the fact that movement is far faster in western europe than any previous HoI2 game/remake and not only that but Strategic Redeployment can be done with Star Trek teleporters.

What I mean by the latter well, here is 2 screen shots, both as the Soviets Redeploying from Baku to Murmansk. The lowest point of Western Russia to the highest point. The first is from the latest DH and the 2nd from the latest AoD. Both are done at nearly the exact same time of Jan 8th 01:00

4v8Wy.jpg

TFVYc.jpg


As you can see DH it takes 2 weeks less to reach the same point compared to AoD. Not only that but SR to close by provinces can be done in very short periods of time of 2-5 days, in AoD the min is about 8-12 days for a short SR.

Combine that with lengthen combat and you have a recipe for the defenders to dump a lot of units to stall or stop attacks dead in the water fairly easily which is leading tot he problem people are having in blitzing particularly vs France.

Ofc there is basic confucious philsophy remedies to make blitzing more effective even in DH as Eugenioso describes and I shall reiterate to an extent

1. If your attacking a cross a river avoid using Armored units and hammer the province with air support, if air support is not available out number your enemy!

2. Use mobile units to breakthrough rapidly and cut off units forming pockets, starve them out as long as possible then deliver the death blow to lower enemy troop count. Make sure to follow up your fast moving mobile units with a single cheap inf division or two in behind to hold those new gains so your mobile unit doesnt get cut off in the process

3. Dont go through forts go around em :)

4. Tanks and mountains dont go well together, just dont do it.

5. Air support air support air support! CAS are the most effective Air support but most vulnerable to losses, Tac's although still effective work to a slight lesser extent but sustain less losses
 
Doesn't work for me, and im not that bad of a player. Currently i struggling with France and it turned into a slugfest at the French border. I cant breakthroughs fast enough because single units hold me up for weeks and bleeding me dry of MP. Their org and up to date army is a hard nut to crack. Think im fighting 170 divs in France (20 british, and 20 low countries) , versus my 100 Ger. 33 scenario also makes me a little short handed spring 1940.
But im not complaining that its hard its just can't see how single HQ can keep my Panzers of for weeks. Seems like every other country also gets to many divs in the 33' scenario but not me making it a challenge. Norway had 8 and Denmark 4 during Weserubung. One Danish div with strenght of 1 held me up for 4 days on flat terrain :D
 
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Stuffs like looooooong battles and faaaaaaast redeployment can easily be tweaked in misc.txt, I think
 
Doesn't work for me, and im not that bad of a player. Currently i struggling with France and it turned into a slugfest at the French border. I cant breakthroughs fast enough because single units hold me up for weeks and bleeding me dry of MP. Their org and up to date army is a hard nut to crack. Think im fighting 170 divs in France (20 british, and 20 low countries) , versus my 100 Ger. 33 scenario also makes me a little short handed spring 1940.
But im not complaining that its hard its just can't see how single HQ can keep my Panzers of for weeks. Seems like every other country also gets to many divs in the 33' scenario but not me making it a challenge. Norway had 8 and Denmark 4 during Weserubung. One Danish div with strenght of 1 held me up for 4 days on flat terrain :D

Well, there's your problem right there. Don't invade France through the Maginot line.
 
Well, there's your problem right there. Don't invade France through the Maginot line.

He didn't say he was doing that. I run into the same thing all the time and it is usually north and west of there after I head through Luxemburg and southern Belgium. There seem to be two things going on: you get stuck too long in a minor battle and the French react too quickly.

BTW, I refought that several times and it worked out the BEST way was actually to smash through the southern end of the Maginot line and then outflank the huge Franco-British army. When I did that things happened more or less like int he actual war, i.e., the French and British reaction was disorganized and scattered.
 
Well, there's your problem right there. Don't invade France through the Maginot line.

I don't :p It's just that the French keep piling up on me never giving me a breakthrough and if i do one div stops me again and they pile up again starting another stack on stack slugfest. They are greater in numbers, fast to redeploy, good on the defense and battles really bleed me dry. Also 33 scenario makes me short handed and the opposite for the French and UK.. The later is ok, just they seem to have more up to date and very good doctrines also. And the Naval bombers should be nerfed a little. My wing of 4 38' tech smashed the Royal Navy in 2 months.
 
ok ill ask: ae you using air support? are you attacking other provinces to draw away enemy forces? are you attacking a flat terrain with tanks or through a river into a marsh?
 
ok ill ask: ae you using air support? are you attacking other provinces to draw away enemy forces? are you attacking a flat terrain with tanks or through a river into a marsh?

Yes, yes and yes most favourable terrain as possible. I know im doing it right to a great extent. Its hard to manouver in this area as it is because of all the urban terrain and rivers. Airsuppport doesn't seem to really make much differense in fighting these 20 stacks but i have to wings of together 8 tacs. I guess the allies also outnumber me 1,8 to 1 in this 33' scenario. Almost all 39' infantry with good org. Even after i modded the startingfile so i start with less dissent.

Another little sidenote: The other countries have success in something like 50% of their spymissions even if i have level 10 spynetwork and and up to date decoding. Shouldn't closed society give further bonuses to this. Why do they succed? Is it because 33'

Edit: checked. Every other major country has level 20 by 39'. How do we fix that or is it WAD? Guess its because of insane amounts of money in the 33 scenario.
Checked saveame february 35' and UK has level 18 already.....

Also notice pretty much all Majors controlled by AI seem to lose dissent insanely fast, start gearing up pretty fast and build a gazillion IC. Think US have 800+ IC spring 1940 and already a fleet of 150 vessels.. without me even having started Fall Gelb. Played historical.

So i guess 33' scenario is al little broken. France 36' i have no prob with.
 
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Using IC to get rid of dissent does tend to flood the countries with money (especially ones with free markets) which I can see distorting things the farther on you go.

Yes, seems like they have to rethink this one. Im getting really hammered with espionage. Often 3 - 4 smearcampaigns a year. But stealing blueprints and sabotaging production happen pretty much a few times a month :glare: Im back to 36' until someone tweaks the balance in 33'. Also notice they build shittons of everything. Seems the alies have x2 the capacity vs 36' scenario in 1940. Dont know about US because i never got that far but they stole all my techs and have 800+ IC and a monsternavy and thats almost 2 years before Pearl Harbor. Their buildqueue is already full of planes, infantry, and transports. (May 1940)Haven't really done anything a historical. Guess they are a whole other nightmare when they get things really going.
 
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erm, question to you smartz.
When attacking Low countries in May 10, 1940, did you ever get like BRithish to send all of their forces there? Because I usually have home fleet and transports doing land brigde for INF from GB, and they can mass up like 40 INF divisions in France. Pretty sight. Also attacking everywhere is so cool, but AI wont reinforce 10 div province where you attack with 3 divs. Also, there is not a slightest need to grind out hundreds of thousands of soldiers just on one breakthrough to keep enemy occupied.
It works in 1939. In 1940, France is tough to crack if it responds. If the AI goes NO U, yer done for without massive attrition battle, especially since Panzers get EASILY STOPPD AND KICKED by single militia division no matter what the terrain. I usually break with 25 MOT/ ARM/ HQ. Two weeks later im constantly being pushed back by single divs all over the France as my main lines are pressed by 50 INF attacks all over. Remove troop from Maginot and French pwns there. Not fun!
 
did you do a distraction assault? attacking from rotterdam in the north and from luxembourg in the south is a great move for distracting a large number of enemy troops in the middle.
 
Yes, seems like they have to rethink this one. Im getting really hammered with espionage. Often 3 - 4 smearcampaigns a year. But stealing blueprints and sabotaging production happen pretty much a few times a month :glare: Im back to 36' until someone tweaks the balance in 33'. Also notice they build shittons of everything. Seems the alies have x2 the capacity vs 36' scenario in 1940. Dont know about US because i never got that far but they stole all my techs and have 800+ IC and a monsternavy and thats almost 2 years before Pearl Harbor. Their buildqueue is already full of planes, infantry, and transports. (May 1940)Haven't really done anything a historical. Guess they are a whole other nightmare when they get things really going.
Not as bad as in HOI3 FTM 3.05.
In merely 4 years US goes from 260based IC to ~900(!) and get about 1300effective IC by 1941.
Then in a year they run of rares and MP so their IC drops to ~600 by late 1942 and they spam more buidings, continuing depleting the WM of resources.
 
You CAN "blitz" your way through the game but you're essentially abusing the AI, tricks like that won't work against human player.
Hence I'd rather not waste the resources. 1 panzer division or 9 infantry divisions with art? Not much of a choice.