Breakthrough, mobilty, by-passing, etc...?

[unmerged(10761)]

Originally posted by Nebukadnezar
Generally spoken the german tank-spearheads had the order not to attack the allied tanks because they were inferior to them in direct combat. (they hit them with Stuka and the famous Flak 88 instead).

You give your own answer:
Probably in the game there is a doctrine setting where you can 'click' on or off these TACTICAL options for your armies.

Then it is up to the game designers how to implement or value these effects versus the doctrine settings of the opponent.

Besides, those panzer spearheads also had the order not to advance TOO far, as there is always the danger of being cut off !
Maybe the furthest they got was some 30-60 km (?).
Lay that on the HOI map, and you will see that this STILL falls within the size of one province.

 

[unmerged(10761)]

..how ?

Originally posted by Shadow Soldier

As a betatester, i am bound to keep the details of the game secret. But, i can tell you not to worry.
-SS

I was wondering;
How does anyone get to be a Beta tester ?
What are the requirements ? Personal Contacts ?
Loyal client ?
Education ?(..wooohaaa ;P )

 

[unmerged(1095)]

Re: ..how ?

Originally posted by snailtrailer


I was wondering;
How does anyone get to be a Beta tester ?
What are the requirements ? Personal Contacts ?
Loyal client ?
Education ?(..wooohaaa ;P )

There was an announcement on these forums.
People answered.
They were picked according to what setup they had etc so as to get a wide a range as possible.

 

[Smiffus]

Re: Re: ..how ?

Originally posted by Uglyduck


There was an announcement on these forums.
People answered.
They were picked according to what setup they had etc so as to get a wide a range as possible.

And of course the added requirement of having no social life what so ever

 

[The Hanoverian]

Re: Re: Re: ..how ?

Originally posted by Smiffus


And of course the added requirement of having no social life what so ever

amen. What little there was, has gone...

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Re: Re: Breakthrough, mobilty, by-passing, etc...?

Originally posted by snailtrailer

Besides, those panzer spearheads also had the order not to advance TOO far, as there is always the danger of being cut off !
Maybe the furthest they got was some 30-60 km (?).

Where do you get this information? I dont mean to slam you or anyting, but this and what you posted in the "other thread" about the fighting abilities of German soldiers in general etc is really puzzeling...

Do they have some kind of weird comic book variants of ww2 history in Holland?

Some examples of distance covered by German panzer spearheads...alone
(i.e. with exposed flanks and infantry following behind as fast as they can)

German/Russian border - Borisov on the Berezina river (east of Minsk):
~350 km (22 June-1 July... 8 days)

Berezina river - Yarzevo (east of Smolensk) :
~300km (7th July -15th July...7 days)

Smolensk area - Romny area (linkup with AG south to close Kiev pocket) :
~450-500 km (24th August - 14th September ...21 days)

 

[unmerged(6909)]

Re: Re: Breakthrough, mobilty, by-passing, etc...?

Originally posted by snailtrailer


You give your own answer:
Probably in the game there is a doctrine setting where you can 'click' on or off these TACTICAL options for your armies.

Then it is up to the game designers how to implement or value these effects versus the doctrine settings of the opponent.

It's true that you can solve a battle within a province but this thread was about how to implmement not only the direct damage but also the feeling of a Blitzkrieg not to mention some of the strategical aspects (cut the north army of their supply).

Originally posted by snailtrailer

Besides, those panzer spearheads also had the order not to advance TOO far, as there is always the danger of being cut off !
Maybe the furthest they got was some 30-60 km (?).
Lay that on the HOI map, and you will see that this STILL falls within the size of one province.

This sounds a bit weird...
To clarify (..some examples from 1940 in addition to Hortlund's examples from Barbarossa)
Rommels 'Ghost Division' made 200km on 1 day! Ok, this was not the average speed but the next day he went on. Same applies for Guderian. Guderian...the man who invented and developed the Panzerwaffe also said that the fast advancing Tanks don't have a flank.....there is no need to secure a flank. As long as they are on the move it's hard for the enemy to even know where they are.
There were some orders especially from Guderian superiors but he ignored them. Even at that time when the orders (he got several of them) reached him the german tanks had already made more than 30-60km
This doesn't applies to every tank unit used in France. Tanks were used for different purposes. Some of them had the order to support the infantry or to wait for infantry for a certain battle. Then there is a flank.

 

[unmerged(3168)]

Just looking at the title of this tread, you could use these words as 'orders' for your armies. How to implement them thou as it could be done 1001 ways, so here are some of my ideas.

For Example ‘by passing’ might allow you to move though a contested province (say at half speed +/- Blitz doctrine level) without fighting (attacking) but your forces will be used to calculate the defenders return fire and suffer double operation losses from it.

Blitzing [edit: only available to mech armies and poss min doct level] might allow you to move thought a contested province (say at normal speed +/- Blitz doctrine level) and attacking at half strength and your forces suffering normally under return fire. The down side to this is that you’ll get out of the province quickly but if you fail to take it with your follow up armies you’ll be out of supply.

When I see Mobility I think of Mobile Defence. It could be simulated by trading ground for time reducing your operation losses by say 25% but retreating from the Province when your operation level gets to 50%.

You could also simulate outflanking by giving any defending unit with an operation level of say less that 35% a 5% chance per day of being encircled (ie surrendering).

Any thoughts/comments?

 

[unmerged(10761)]

..yes..yes..

..sorry, I wasn't thinking of the russian campaign.
..and in France 1940 I didnot have info at hand how far the furthest distance from the frontline was..
(that's why I put a question mark...I guessed the comparative distance Sedan-Paris was 100 km..but in fact it is 230 kms..) ).

But I gather that the effect in Russia (encircling russian armies on a large scale) can be done in the game with a '100%' panzer(+mechanised) army...and the provinces scale in HOI should be sufficient for that (without having seen an actual HOI SU map)..
The smaller panzer spitzen in France is then more difficult to model in HOI.

The solution to this is only ; smaller provinces....but then they'd turn into hexes..and that would be too small for the game philosophy..

Actually I stated before that the provinces (especially in Belgium) should be smaller.
Strange thing is that I have seen a screen shot of Finland where those provinces are much smaller than the ones in Belgium..(????).


By the way ; if bypassing should be allowed, then what about paratroopers ?
I haven't seen any info about how that (range, plane capacity) is resolved in HOI ?

 

[Kelvin]

In France...

Guderian ignored all orders to keep his army together and abandoned everything except panzers, mobile/motorized infantry and recon units. For artillery he relied on dive bombers, and his progress was so fast that in some places he outran the retreating French forces and refueled his units on French gas/petrol stations along the road.