Breaking up Empires

[Herbert George]

One of the most annoying things in Vicky 1 is the resilience of Austria and the Ottomans (unless you're playing as them, of course!).

In a crusading "in-character" game as Russia, I made it my aim to liberate all my Orthodox brothers. I ended up with massive badboy for no direct territorial gains (but a host of small satellites), and a constant cycle of war against Germany

These two obsolete monoliths almost always survive to the end of the game unless the player sets out specifically to destroy them. I think there should be an option in peace negotiations to release subjects (e.g. "humiliate; release Croatia; release Slovakia"). This should result in little or no badboy.

Alternatively, it should be an option as soon as you occupy the capital of the nation in question (similar to the "Tsar of all Slavs" event chain). Again, this shouldn't have serious badboy consequences.

Of course I'm just using Austria and Ottomans as examples because they DIDN't survive in real history - this could also work with Russia, Italy, Germany, Britain or colonies (e.g. "release Cambodia" or "release Abyssinia").

Or how about three levels - you can either take occupied land for yourself (high badboy), release it as a satellite (low badboy), or release as fully independent (zero badboy).

What do people think of this idea?

 

[OHgamer]

Disagree - the British, French and Austrians were terrified by the idea of the Russians "liberating" the Orthodox peoples of the Balkans from Ottoman and Habsburg rule, as a serious threat to the balance of power in Europe. Badboy in V1 was well deserved in these cases. The British and French would not have sat idly by and let the Russians redraw the map of the Balkans (see Crimea 1853 and the Berlin Conference of 1878)

Whatever mechanisms are included in V2, it needs to keep in mind this idea of balance of power in Europe and how to improve on it in terms of gameplay so that it really means something this time around. The last thing it should do is reduce the diplomatic impact of breaking up the Habsburg, Ottoman (or Russian for that matter) empires.

 

[EUnderhill]

Somewhat agree with both of you. My hope for the Clauswitz engine is that it is flexible enough so that it can "recognize" another imbalance, lets say early German unification that leaves Austria humiliated and encourage Slav liberation under Russian guidance as a counterweight, even at the expense of the Habsburgs and Ottomans.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

I think the break down of empires should be incorporated as an organic part of Vicky2 (Ie: no events to make it happen).
Simply put, POPs should demand more luxuries as time goes by, and only countries that industrialize, colonize and/or militarize their way up will be able to meet those demands and not be hit by nationalist revolts as a result.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I started a similar thread and King posted in it strongly implying that collapsing empires would be a feature PI give plenty of love to in vicky2, so this should be addressed OK. I'm guessing they may use nationalism as a tool for this as it would be both historical and interesting for gameplay.

I would like to see (admittedly this is a very vague idea) nationalism or seperatism as measurable qualities in pops. It would be gresat to see at a glance, playing as AH, how much the Czechs want to seceed, or as the Russians how loyal Ukraine is.

 

[Herbert George]

Fair points about maintaining the balance of power, but surely even then the British and French would have viewed Russia creating "free" nations in the Balkans as a lesser outrage than a massively expanded Russian Empire proper.

Also, although yes Austria-Hungary had growing secessionist movements in the early 20th Century it was dismembered in the end entirely at the will of its victorious enemies. There was no surge of international hostility against the Entente powers, except from within the defeated Central Powers themselves.

A fraction before the Vicky era, Britain, France, Russia and Bavaria established the Kingdom of Greece, carved out from Ottoman lands. Nobody was particularly angry except the Turks (and the Greeks who'd been hoping for a republic or a Greek monarch rather than a German one!).

As a general game mechanic (forced release of subject nations), also consider this example - Germany goes to war against France and its ally Belgium. Belgium is annexed but France carries on the war alone and eventually occupies and "frees" Belgium. Should France then take a badboy hit for acting honourably to help its ally?


Maybe a way to keep the balance of power would be to have some kind of diplomatic intervention. For example when one side reaches 25% war score, the computer (representing neutral Powers) suggests reasonable terms for a peace treaty (which may include release of subject nations, reparations, land hand-overs etc as normal). If both parties accept, then normal badboy. If the losing side rejects, then the war continues as normal. If the winning side rejects, they get an immediate large badboy hit, in addition to what they get anyway from the final settlement. Repeat at 50%, 75% and 100% war score.

 

[rjf101]

I agree with the idea that you should be able to gain satellites through a peace deal (also should be able to have a nation released as fully independant, like for example after WWI all those new nations such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. weren't satellites of the Entente Powers but were fully independant). But then of course, there might have been times when the victor wanted the released nation to be their new satellite. This is especially useful when a human player is at war and dosen't want to accept a peace that would create some very ugly borders.

Example:

Russia is at war with Austria. They already won Slovakia, Czech lands, Croatia and Slovenia is previous wars, so they decide to go for Hungary. Unfortunately, Hungary is very large, and they can't hold on to all of it at once. Problems of control aside, they can't get Austria to part with such a humongous chunk of land no matter what they do. So, instead of trying to annex the entire nation of Hungary, or settle for a smaller and aesthetically unappealing part of it, they ask for Austria to release it as a Russian satellite. This, the Austrians finally agree to. Russia is happy and, well the Hungarians are too. (Note: if this ever happened in the game there should be something that would cause Austria-Hungary to become just Austria again)

 

[unmerged(59077)]

I agree in principle that there should be more peace options...a lot more. Setting up new states and carving up Empires without direct annexations is one distinct feature missing in V1.

 

[Quarto]

Disagree - the British, French and Austrians were terrified by the idea of the Russians "liberating" the Orthodox peoples of the Balkans from Ottoman and Habsburg rule, as a serious threat to the balance of power in Europe. Badboy in V1 was well deserved in these cases. The British and French would not have sat idly by and let the Russians redraw the map of the Balkans (see Crimea 1853 and the Berlin Conference of 1878)

You're right... but you're wrong . The Berlin Conference of 1878 is a good example - faced with a fait accompli, the British, French and Austrians simply worked "damage control". It's pretty undeniable that Russia did exactly what Herbert George suggested should be possible - i.e., Russia forced the Ottomans to liberate Bulgaria, and within pretty extreme borders, too. You are right, that the other great powers were terrified by this, and they forced Russia to back down a bit - but they didn't really try to force Russia to back down all the way. They were able to revise Bulgaria's borders and limit its sovereignty, but they weren't able to undo its creation entirely. The only way they could have done it would have been by war - and neither side particularly wanted a repeat of Crimea.

Speaking of which, that would be a really great feature as far as diplomacy goes - when another nation signs a peace treaty that involves territorial transfers, great powers should be able to intervene and demand a change of terms. This should be pretty high-risk, though - if that other nation refuses to budge, you must either go to war or lose tons of prestige.

 

[crusaderking]

Exactly....and the peace-making process should be like this....first, the warring nations sign a truce....then all the participant nations and the other nearby great powers should take part in conferences which can go on for months where the countries put forward peace terms, reject some terms, accept some till the everything is agreed upon by everyone....these conferences can be hosted by any participant nation (eg. France) and the conference is named after the nation's capital...(eg. Peace of Paris).

 

[unmerged(77251)]

I don't see the problem here: why not implement both ? Eg: in the peace menu, you get a 'force release X nation' which only nets you half the amount of BB points per province than direct annexation. Thus you cannot go on 'liberation rampage', but you can destroy one specific empire.
Anyway, if vicky 2 gets half as sandbox like than the dev diaries suggest it, the option is a must, since its the only way to re-create swallowed-up nations without having to edit/reload the game as a different nation.

 

[namuseta]

While this is not a bad idea, it shud not be any cheaper when you are making peace. They are stilll after all giving up their land.

And bb points shud be the same too i really dont see any really good reason why it would make you any less evil when you direcly release a pupet and when you annex and then release it.

 

[the_hdk]

Exactly....and the peace-making process should be like this....first, the warring nations sign a truce....then all the participant nations and the other nearby great powers should take part in conferences which can go on for months where the countries put forward peace terms, reject some terms, accept some till the everything is agreed upon by everyone....these conferences can be hosted by any participant nation (eg. France) and the conference is named after the nation's capital...(eg. Peace of Paris).

I really like the idea...especially if you add the feature of Sphere of Influence from Heir to the throne

 

[Darknesskilla]

Exactly....and the peace-making process should be like this....first, the warring nations sign a truce....then all the participant nations and the other nearby great powers should take part in conferences which can go on for months where the countries put forward peace terms, reject some terms, accept some till the everything is agreed upon by everyone....these conferences can be hosted by any participant nation (eg. France) and the conference is named after the nation's capital...(eg. Peace of Paris).

This, but limit this to Great Wars

 

[Amallric]

This is useless.

 

[ashandresash]

(...)
I would like to see (admittedly this is a very vague idea) nationalism or seperatism as measurable qualities in pops. It would be gresat to see at a glance, playing as AH, how much the Czechs want to seceed, or as the Russians how loyal Ukraine is.

And foreign powers giving support to separatists, or declaring a war to free friend minorities (à la pan-orthodox-slavic Russia...). Who said intel and spies were useless in Vicky?

I think it's manageable if POP issues are less chaotic and more relevant than in Vicky, and 'nationalism' is one of the dimensions considered.

 

[crusaderking]

This, but limit this to Great Wars

true....or wars involving more than 4 countries....and ofcourse, even if the war is btwn 2 countries, the neighbouring big guns can barge their way into the peace-making process to limit large transfers of land or something...i think we can improvise on this idea more though...

 

[Xz2]

While this is not a bad idea, it shud not be any cheaper when you are making peace. They are stilll after all giving up their land.

And bb points shud be the same too i really dont see any really good reason why it would make you any less evil when you direcly release a pupet and when you annex and then release it.

then, why should anyone do it?

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

And foreign powers giving support to separatists, or declaring a war to free friend minorities (à la pan-orthodox-slavic Russia...). Who said intel and spies were useless in Vicky?

I think it's manageable if POP issues are less chaotic and more relevant than in Vicky, and 'nationalism' is one of the dimensions considered.

Oh yeah, big time. there HAS to be an espionage mission to do this.