Brandenburg/Prussia

[unmerged(18992)]

Just had a thought from my last post. What will things be like with Brandenburg and its journey into become prussia?

Most of the time in Eu2 Prussia would not even be formed at all, either the duchy prussia brandenburg needed to become it got destroyed by something or brandenburg itself got eaten up by somebody or another.

Perhaps if prussia hasnt formed in 1700 or whenever it was there should be massive revolt events, (even if they are ahistorical) similar to the dutch independence ones to make it most probable that the country will form.

 

[Okawoa]

Just had a thought from my last post. What will things be like with Brandenburg and its journey into become prussia?

Most of the time in Eu2 Prussia would not even be formed at all, either the duchy prussia brandenburg needed to become it got destroyed by something or brandenburg itself got eaten up by somebody or another.

Perhaps if prussia hasnt formed in 1700 or whenever it was there should be massive revolt events, (even if they are ahistorical) similar to the dutch independence ones to make it most probable that the country will form.

As much as I like a big, black prussia. With high lvls of army tech, I don't think its likely to see much prussias...

The reasons behind this is that in Eu3 the events run off what COULD of happened. Prussia was brought to the world stage by Fredirech and his father, they both were good statesmen but if Prussia was ruled by morons and Poland had some successful kings, I really think that Prussia would't of formed. It would've been an Polish vassal.

However, the crew want to build an flow of history, where gameplay effects gameplay. Its not that SUDDENLY history has declared Prussia to form and become superpower, but that Prussia has good, milistic kings, Sweden and Poland are fighting (thus weaker), and that no other power in Germany has formed.

I am looking forward to see a catholic Barvarian Germany or an Hasburg holy roman empire.

 

[Watcher]

If you want a big, powerful Prussia just start in the XVIIIth Century.

 

[unmerged(18992)]

In that case you could argue that events to form the netherlands should not take place, if spain doesnt rule it perhpas there would be no need for it to revolt etc. The aim of the game is bassically to reshape history as you see fit, but for big important world changing events (such as netherlands, prussia) there should be at least something which makes it difficult for them not to occur. Another such one is the american war of independence, etc.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

In that case you could argue that events to form the netherlands should not take place, if spain doesnt rule it perhpas there would be no need for it to revolt etc. The aim of the game is bassically to reshape history as you see fit, but for big important world changing events (such as netherlands, prussia) there should be at least something which makes it difficult for them not to occur. Another such one is the american war of independence, etc.

There also will not be specific events that will form the Netherlands or the USA.

But if say, the Dutch provinces convert to Calvinism (don't know how the Reformation works in EUIII so this might also be unlikely) and the king of Spain stays catholic with a low tolerance to Calvinism and he tax his Dutch provinces high and gives less right to his people but instead goes for more royal power, then the Dutch rebellion events might fire, and the Netherlands maybe formed

But if the king of Spain is a tolerant and enlightened ruler, who decentralises his power then it is unlikely that the Dutch provinces will revolt

 

[Registered]

There also will not be specific events that will form the Netherlands or the USA.

You know this how? True there will be no events with just country and date as triggers. But taht does not mean that there will be no events to form the Netherlands/US from whoever holds their provinces at the appropriate time. Of course those events might not fire, but they'll still be there in all probability.

 

[unmerged(10915)]

It would be wonderful if an idea, that has recently been implemented in FAL's eu2 MP games, would be used.

Rule #9 In the case that Brandenburg is near 1700 not the major power (besides Austria) in the region, but it's instead clear that either Bavaria or the Palatinat [or some other German minor] is the dominant power in the region, that minor will become Prussia int the place of Brandenburg. This gives all minor an incentive to fight for something.

So, at some date, or at some rate of unification, a kind of Prussia will be created, with its good leaders and great historical future .

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

You know this how? True there will be no events with just country and date as triggers. But taht does not mean that there will be no events to form the Netherlands/US from whoever holds their provinces at the appropriate time. Of course those events might not fire, but they'll still be there in all probability.

I don't know that of course.

AFAIK it is said, that after the start of your game, things will be random. So that is why I think that there won't be specific events for the Netherlands and the USA. Why would there be ? If you start in 1500, why would the USA be created 270 years after that.

Under certain conditions, a region might revolt (because of religious intolerance, harsh taxations_ and turn into a independent nation which might be in the Low Lands, and which will create the Netherlands, but could just as well happen to Mecklemburg or Mexico or any other region.

 

[knul]

There also will not be specific events that will form the Netherlands or the USA.

But if say, the Dutch provinces convert to Calvinism (don't know how the Reformation works in EUIII so this might also be unlikely) and the king of Spain stays catholic with a low tolerance to Calvinism and he tax his Dutch provinces high and gives less right to his people but instead goes for more royal power, then the Dutch rebellion events might fire, and the Netherlands maybe formed

But if the king of Spain is a tolerant and enlightened ruler, who decentralises his power then it is unlikely that the Dutch provinces will revolt

It has been stated that there will be historical events, only that they have more triggers than just a date. The scenario that you describe here seems to be the idea of the dynamical events. The forming of the Netherlands (or any other historical event) are not god-ordained inevitable events anymore but depend on all kinds of factors.

You say that there will be no specific events that form the Netherlands and then you give an specific example of the forming the Netherlands. If you mean that any Calvinistic part of an narrowminded Catholic country can form a new nation, I think it's too bland. I think such events as the forming of the Netherlands with Alva, the Eighty Years War and such give the game its flavour.

People in general think that there will be no historical events. Nowhere have I seen evidence for this. The only big change is that events are no longer only triggered by date alone, so all historical events are avoidable. For example, the forming of the Netherlands could have triggers regarding religions, innovativeness and monarch properties. So if you rule your country with tolerance and benevolence, the Netherlands probably won't form.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

You say that there will be no specific events that form the Netherlands and then you give an specific example of the forming the Netherlands. If you mean that any Calvinistic part of an narrowminded Catholic country can form a new nation, I think it's too bland. I think such events as the forming of the Netherlands with Alva, the Eighty Years War and such give the game its flavour.

My example is not a specific example

into a independent nation which might be in the Low Lands, and which will create the Netherlands, but could just as well happen to Mecklemburg

Why would there be a specific event, just for the Netherlands region ? The forming of the Netherlands wouldn't make much sense if I start in 1453 as Gelre and stay part of the Holy Roman Empire, just as Holland and Frisia

Gelre and the other Dutch provinces stay catholic and the Holy Roman Emperor starts to follow a hard-line against the Protestants in Mecklemburg, taxing them high and depriving them of their privileges. Mecklemburg revolts and the Emperor sends one of his generals the Duke of Lorraine to Mecklemburg to crush the rebellion, but the Mecklemburgers get support from other Protestantsa and stays independent and even conquers Hamburg.

The Mecklemburgers, revive the old Hanseatic League in Northern Germany and a expedition is sent to the East Indies by an explorerer and Mecklemburgs sets up tradingposts on Java and Ambon and starts to control the trade in spices.

Mecklemburg has a very tolerant attitude towards other religions and attracts many artists and scholars to its land, start of the Golden Mecklemburg Century

EDIT
So to follow the subject of this thread.

Why would Brandenburg and Prussia unite ? It might just as well be Saxony and Prussia or Brunswick and Prussia, or Saxony and Pommerania

It might happen, the event triggers and possibilities (Personal Unions) are in the game, but it won't be specific just for those 2 nations I believe

 

[Okawoa]

So if you rule your country with tolerance and benevolence, the Netherlands probably won't form.

thus it should cost high to have high tolerance and there ought to be events that demand autonomy. That would lead to the netherlands forming, even with a player playing Spain...

I would like something like constant revolts, rebels clashing constantly with the garisions...

 

[Registered]

AFAIK it is said, that after the start of your game, things will be random.

It has been said yes. But not by anyone in the dev or beta team. It just seems to be a very persistant rumor. As Knul said, there will be historical events. But they will have more sophistcated triggers. So yes in a game the Dutch revolt or Brandenburg becomeing Prussia might not happen. It depends on the circumstances.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

It has been said yes. But not by anyone in the dev or beta team. It just seems to be a very persistant rumor. As Knul said, there will be historical events. But they will have more sophistcated triggers. So yes in a game the Dutch revolt or Brandenburg becomeing Prussia might not happen. It depends on the circumstances.

And that is what I mean with 'random' !

It might fire under the right circumstances and it might not fire under the wrong circumstances.

 

[Bodders]

And that is what I mean with 'random' !

It might fire under the right circumstances and it might not fire under the wrong circumstances.

Yes, but your example that any region governed by another country could, under the right circumstances rebel to form a new country, is hardly what I would call a 'historical event'. Even if the text that came up referred to the Dutch revolts just as 'flavour' (when in the game the rebellion is nothing to do with the Netherlands).

Only by the broadest stretch of the definition could you call this sort of event 'historical'. As they have stated many time historical events remain in the game with more sophisticated triggers, I would be very surprised if there aren't special ones with regards to the Netherlands and Brandenburg/Prussia and many more.

So, in many games, you probably won't see the Netherlands because the conditions aren't there, in some games you will in a way that will not apply to 'random semi-autonomous region' somewhere else.

 

[Hyzhenhok]

There will likely be Brandenburg -> Prussia historical events. But the "forced" creation of Prussia is exactly the kind of thing Paradox is moving away from. If the correct conditions are filled, which will probably not be difficult for a human player, it should happen. If the Prussian provinces are owned by Sweden or Poland, and Brandenburg has one province that is being besieged by Saxony, then no, Prussia shouldn't form.

The Prussian circumstances were rather special -- I doubt the AI will be able to fulfill them. And since Austria probably won't get Bohemia and Hungary 100% of the time for free anymore, it woudl be silly to force Prussia into existence.

Or do you prefer:
Oh look, turns out France was the one who found Mexico and took all the Aztec and Inca gold. They become stinking rich and soon control much of western europe.
A few years later: 3-province Spain collapses due to historical bankrupcy.

 

[knul]

And that is what I mean with 'random' !

It might fire under the right circumstances and it might not fire under the wrong circumstances.

That is not what random means. A random event fires if the dice roll right. Events with triggers fire when their conditions are met. Sure, they might fire or not depending on circumstances, but that's not random. If they always fire in the same circumstances, it isn't random.

What I mean with historical event is that certain countries get exclusive events that fire at (or around) some date, provided some conditions are met. I really think such events will be in EU3. Why else would there be country tags? I think the only difference with Eu2 will be that in EU2 the historical events always fired, regardless of the situation. In EU3, it depends on more things. But to say situational events are random is stretching the definition of random too much.

 

[Asaris]

There's a few differences between the case of the Netherlands and Prussia, at least, AFAIK. Prussia seems to have formed due to the cunning of the Brandenburg monarchs in forming dynastic relationships with Old Prussia, and in part because of the politics of the HRE. (The princes of Brandenburg couldn't be kings unless they owned substantial land outside of the HRE.) This is the sort of thing the game mechanics are already set up to model. But the Netherlands formed at least in part due to the independence-mindedness of the local citizenry. And there's nothing in the game mechanics that, AFAIK, models the relative desire of peoples for liberty.

 

[unmerged(12921)]

There will likely be Brandenburg -> Prussia historical events. But the "forced" creation of Prussia is exactly the kind of thing Paradox is moving away from. If the correct conditions are filled, which will probably not be difficult for a human player, it should happen. If the Prussian provinces are owned by Sweden or Poland, and Brandenburg has one province that is being besieged by Saxony, then no, Prussia shouldn't form.

The Prussian circumstances were rather special -- I doubt the AI will be able to fulfill them. And since Austria probably won't get Bohemia and Hungary 100% of the time for free anymore, it woudl be silly to force Prussia into existence.

Or do you prefer:
Oh look, turns out France was the one who found Mexico and took all the Aztec and Inca gold. They become stinking rich and soon control much of western europe.
A few years later: 3-province Spain collapses due to historical bankrupcy.

This is THE basic problem with the more "wide open" approach planned for this game..., variables expand exponentially and pretty soon any "historical flavor" is lost. Not to mention the impossibility of creating a "decision tree" large enough to handle every country taking off in a "random" direction. By 1550, will anything reccognizable remain?

 

[unmerged(60670)]

That is not what random means. A random event fires if the dice roll right. Events with triggers fire when their conditions are met. Sure, they might fire or not depending on circumstances, but that's not random. If they always fire in the same circumstances, it isn't random.

What I mean with historical event is that certain countries get exclusive events that fire at (or around) some date, provided some conditions are met. I really think such events will be in EU3. Why else would there be country tags? I think the only difference with Eu2 will be that in EU2 the historical events always fired, regardless of the situation. In EU3, it depends on more things. But to say situational events are random is stretching the definition of random too much.

There can be another case:
If all conditions are satisfied (like in usual tag) then with some probability the event fires or don't and computer remembers the result of this rolling of dice, so this event will not be considered in future.

 

[unmerged(60670)]

There's a few differences between the case of the Netherlands and Prussia, at least, AFAIK. Prussia seems to have formed due to the cunning of the Brandenburg monarchs in forming dynastic relationships with Old Prussia, and in part because of the politics of the HRE. (The princes of Brandenburg couldn't be kings unless they owned substantial land outside of the HRE.) This is the sort of thing the game mechanics are already set up to model. But the Netherlands formed at least in part due to the independence-mindedness of the local citizenry. And there's nothing in the game mechanics that, AFAIK, models the relative desire of peoples for liberty.

This thing is called revolt risk. When it's high people want to get liberty.