Brainstorming for Napoleonic Victory Mod

[Varning]

I like to mod in my free time, as a means of basically procrastinating and not doing work. Something I've been considering is an alternate history mod which explores the possibility of a Napoleonic victory. I'm know just enough about history to make some guesses as to what could happen and just enough to probably be completely wrong. I'd really appreciate anyone tossing around ideas for what a First French Empire-run world would look like. For how the victory came about, I see two main options (though I'm open to ideas!):

1) A victory at Trafalgar - Giving Napoleon naval dominance which allows him to enforce the Continental system and stifles any further attempts to crush France. Unfortunately Trafalgar is fairly early in the Napoleonic Wars and a lot of the fun states haven't even come about yet.

2) A closer alliance with Alexander I - If Napoleon had maybe stoked Alexander's liberal tendencies, perhaps a Franco-Russian alliance could have been maintained? A firmly pro-French Alexander would prevent the formation of the Sixth coalition. Then, Napoleon could build his grand navy at his leisure and eventually invade England. This is the option I prefer, though if there are glaring historical problems let me know.

I've done a small amount of work already, mostly with fixing borders. Here's a picture:

Obviously, France is much bigger! There is a rump Kingdom of Holland right above it. The Kingdom of Italy has been created, but it will only control the North. I also used the Krakow tag for the Duchy of Warsaw (the big pink blob), which will probably have an event to become Poland. I plan on adding many more Napoleonic countries, I've only gotten few so far. Ones I intend to include are:

Kingdom of Etruria (Tuscany and most of the Papal states)
Illyria
Westphalia (!)
Possibly breaking Portugal up into seperate duchies
Dividing Two Sicilies into Sicily and Naples
Duchy of Berg
If the UK was soundly defeated, perhaps its dissolved and there is a free Ireland, England, Scotland, and Wales

If you know of other nations, fill me in!


Some of the ideas for events that I've had:

1) The unification of Germany - Under possibly a strengthened Bavaria or Westphalia

2) Saxony and Poland are in a personal union - leading to Saxony-Poland? I might give Silesia to Saxony to begin with.

3) Alexander I freed the serfs and has reformed and modernized Russia - just in time for liberal revolutions!

4) Napoleon supports Alexander's wars against the Ottoman empire, creating all sorts of new states in the Balkans

5) A revanchist England wants to regain its empire...

So yeah, it will definitely be a lot of work that I'll have to do in my free time. I love history (and Napoleon in particular), so it's been fun too. That doesn't mean I'll turn down an offer of help though!

 

[Dark Knight]

2) Saxony and Poland are in a personal union - leading to Saxony-Poland? I might give Silesia to Saxony to begin with.

Did you give Saxony back the territory it lost to Prussia at the Congress of Vienna? In either of your scenarios, it never would have lost it in the first place.

 

[Andrelvis]

I would make the deposing (or rather the lack of the deposing) of King Charles IV of Spain be the changing event, as then Napoleon wouldn't have to face guerrilla warfare, for which he was unprepared for, and not a really needed one at that, as the Spanish sovereign was already de facto a vassal of his. In "The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers", Paul Kennedy argues that until the end of the war, military balance was very precarious, and that had the French Empire devoted it's resources to building a massive fleet, it could have done so. So, without the Spanish Ulcer to undermine him, and without doing the mistake of trying to invade Russia, I believe Napoleon could have built in time a fleet good enough to pose a threat to Britain in the high seas. If he managed to do as much as cut off the British Isles from the colonial peripheries and world trade, or at least severely damage the connections, the French Emperor could have probably gotten a definitive peace treaty concluded with Great Britain - especially he was willing to do certain concessions such as giving the Illyrian provinces back to Austria or give independence to the Dutch territories or Hamburg, for example. I doubt that, even had he beaten Britain, if he continued behaving as aggressively as he had been that he could hold sway over Europe over an indefinite amount of time - he couldn't possibly control all that territory with the resources available to him. Had he given up on defining the destiny of Poland, that would certainly help on reaching an agreement with Russia.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Holland should perhaps be the Batavian Republic??

Bernadotte would obviously not have been able to keep the Swedish throne, and since Denmark supported Bonaparte, perhaps they'd get the throne. United Scandinavia!!

Have Portugal enslaved under Bonapartist Spain, and have the true Portuguese dynasty fighting back from Brazil.

Wouldn't Poland be the Grand Duchy of Warszaw in a Personal Union with France? I guess the Union would be broken with Napoleon I;s death though. You're right they should be able to form Poland.

Have some nice Italian unfication events for Etruria, I guess France would support a united allied Italy.

Prussia should not have any Rhineland provinces.

Austria lost quite a lot territory during the Napoleonic wars.

 

[Varning]

Did you give Saxony back the territory it lost to Prussia at the Congress of Vienna? In either of your scenarios, it never would have lost it in the first place.

Yes, though I'm unsure if the Kingdom of Saxony would perhaps take the smaller counties like Saxe-Gotha, Saxe-Meiningen and so on. For now they're independent but that may not stick. It can be pretty hard to find info for some of the more obscure counties and such.

I would make the deposing (or rather the lack of the deposing) of King Charles IV of Spain be the changing event

I didn't even consider this but it makes so much sense! Napoleon crushes Portugal but doesn't usurp the Spanish throne for his family. This also allows Spain to keep some (or all?) of their new world possessions, at least until the game begins which can make for all sorts of fun events.

Let's say Napoleon doesn't depose Charles IV and buddies up to Alexander. If he had been more conservative with his fleet before (maybe Trafalgar is still a loss, but a less devastating one?) by when could he build a fleet to challenge the UK? I'd like it to be before the war of 1812 ends, so that some fun alternate history can happen in North America as well. Maybe even the liberation of Canada!

Holland should perhaps be the Batavian Republic??

The Batavian Republic was thrown out early in the Napoleon Wars, 1806. A Kingdom of Holland ruled by Louis Bonaparte is probably more likely.

Bernadotte would obviously not have been able to keep the Swedish throne

I think in this situation the very opportunistic Bernadotte would be more pro-Napoleon. On the other hand, I would like to come up with a way for a united Scandinavia...

Have Portugal enslaved under Bonapartist Spain, and have the true Portuguese dynasty fighting back from Brazil

You read my mind! Northern Portugal will be annexed into Spain, there should be a middle Portuguese Kingdom, and a Southern Kingdom of Algarve. Meanwhile the real House of Braganza will be in Brazil.

Wouldn't Poland be the Grand Duchy of Warszaw in a Personal Union with France?

Napoleon put the Duchy into a personal union with his ally, Saxony.

More Maps!

1) Grand Duchy of Oldenberg, subsumed most of Hannover.
2) Duchy of Berg
3) Westphalia, it does not include Schlieswig-Holstein, they are just the same color for the moment.
4) Kingdom of Saxony, if I got the borders wrong let me know
5) Expanded Kingdom of Bavaria, note Tyrol, I'll probably take Wurzburg from them and make it independent
6) Swedish Pommerania

1) Kingdom of Italy, ruled by Eugène de Beauharnais, Napoleon's stepson.
2) Kingdom of Etruria, ruled by Elisa Bonaparte Baciocchi or a successor
3) Sardinia-Piedmont, which is just Sardinia now
4) Kingdom of Naples, ruled by Joseph Bonaparte (who is not also the King of Spain!)
5) Kingdom of Sicily, ruled by Ferdinand of the Bourbons

Thanks a lot for the feedback everyone!

I have a few questions for anyone to think about: What happens to South Africa? Does it stay with Holland, thus the Boer Republics never come about? What about India? A devastated English navy along with having to contend with French naval superiority would definitely reduce English power in India. Also, I think the defeat is going to cause some pretty severe internal problems for the UK, so keep that in mind.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Make the Dutch colonies around the world break with the motherland (obviously with UK support). Would be cool!! Independent Dutch East India Company!!

Bernadotte was given the Swedish throne due to British plotting; separate a French general who had no high regards for Nappy from the French. Sweden was already in the anti- French camp. I could see Nappy depose Bernadotte and give the crown to the House of Oldenburg (anyway, Norway should probably not be Swedish).

What about French Illyria??

 

[Andrelvis]

You're right, the Danes should probably keep them.

 

[Varning]

Yeah, considering that Sweden was given Norway in exchange for being on the right side of the Napoleonic Wars in our timeline, it might be interesting for it to be the other way around. I'll probably put Denmark-Norway as one country with Sweden as a satellite, with a later event to form a united Scandinavia.

 

[Varning]

Post-Napoleonic India, of all places

After the downfall of the British, I'm assuming their authority was rather crushed and faltered throughout India. Thus, they were never around to finish off the Marathas and lethally weaken the Indian kingdoms; in fact, they were largely pushed back.

1) Maratha Confederacy - Not destroyed, as you can see, and the most populous unciv after China. I'll probably give them some sort of civilization chain.
2) Hyderabad
3) Rajputana
4) Gujarat - Possibly a Maratha satellite
5) Mysore
6) Dutch holdings in India, the Dutch will probably try to increase their power
7) UK now, but I plan to make it an independent (completely!) British East India company spin-off state.

 

[Andrelvis]

7) UK now, but I plan to make it an independent (completely!) British East India company spin-off state.

This could be pretty interesting... maybe it would turn out into a country where the British living in India would migrate to after the loss of UK authority, being called "East India", in the tradition of naming for other British-descended countries such as "America" and "South Africa"?

 

[yourworstnightm]

What about French Pondicherry??

 

[Zelvik]

Ried (representing the Innviertel/Innkreis) probably should be Bavarian. It first became Austrian just some decades before Napoleons rule (War of Bavarian Succession) and was handed back to Bavaria under Bonaparte. So if Napoleon succeeds Bavaria should still own it.

One Question: How will you implement the Confederation of the Rhine?

 

[Evans]

Even with some kind of large Napoleonic fleet, which would be difficult, the British would have been actively trying to keep it dispersed and prevent it uniting into a larger force. Furthermore with no land campaigns in Europe feasible Britain would likely have had even more resources for the navy. I'm thinking that Britain would have been forced to accept French dominance on the continent, but that France was unable to force a surrender from them. So essentially, the UK keeps her colonies in North America and India (although perhaps with French and Russian aid going to the natives). Even with a fleet I feel the French would have been unable to force the British out of India or the dissolution of the United Kingdom. The UK could have a diminished Indian holding though?

It depends how nerfed Britain needs to be to create an interesting game, but I thought we could also fiddle with the time-line around the war of 1812. Either, additional French help lets the Americans win concessions, or the British, un-distracted by a land war with the French, manage to win back (parts of?) New England. I think that having the US lose this war (even with French aid) will set up a more interesting geo-political situation and the potential for another war breaking out between the US and UK - with the potential that France get involved. On the other hand, having the US win raises questions of what they'd get and what the French would be able to do as well. We could potentially see a return of French Canada (with the Anglo Canadians becoming parts of the USA?). In any case, we need to think about what happens with the Louisiana purchase - do we allow the US a free hand expanding westward, or will they have another imperial power to fight in order to expand? The latter would offer them a chance to make up with Britain in order to fight the French...

I'm also thinking that with France wanting peace in the east, then Russia could have forced French concessions to buy their neutrality. In particular I'm thinking that as well as demanding the right to interfere in the Ottoman Empire Russia would have at least: Kapsukas and Sulwaki; demanded that the Duchy of Warsaw be their vassal (if not annexed outright); and the annexation of Austrian Galicia. And possibly support from the French for their attempts at pushing to the Indian ocean (Persia?)

Which raises the question - what could France keep of her gains? I think we've already covered the eastern border, and questions about North America have been raised. But what about her vassal kingdoms, and their colonies? I think to be honest that Brazil would not be happy with receiving the King of Portugal, and that rather they'd have had an easier time becoming independent. What of Spain's colonies, with the French alliance strong, would the British have taken their Caribbean provinces? What of Sweden, how would they have felt given that they seem to have been left out of the spoils of the war? Would they perhaps have regained some more of Pommerania? Would there have been pressure from the populace to form a united Kingdom of Scandinavia capable of standing up to the French puppet-masters? What about Italy, how do the people receive their French imposed rulers? Probably not well, given their resentment of Austria OTL... Could Austria force the unification of Italy through in reverse of the real life situation? What about the Balkans, does Russia impose a system of Slav-friendly rule in the south? And how about Greece, do they manage to win more concessions from the Turks after the latter has been beaten up by the Russians?

Lots of things to think about

 

[yourworstnightm]

How about an idependent Courland?? Could be a nice effect from Russian defeat.

 

[Varning]

This could be pretty interesting... maybe it would turn out into a country where the British living in India would migrate to after the loss of UK authority, being called "East India", in the tradition of naming for other British-descended countries such as "America" and "South Africa"?

That's the plan! I'll add some British pops to represent expats.

What about French Pondicherry??

The French East India company was disbanded before the revolution I believe, and I'm not sure if Pondicherry is significant enough to earn a province. The French Empire's colonization priorities will be focused on Southeast Asia, Korea, and possibly Japan. Obviously though, a player could invade India what with its number of squishy and vulnerable uncivs!

Ried (representing the Innviertel/Innkreis) probably should be Bavarian.

Thanks, I was wondering who it would go to since the Victoria map doesn't always mesh up with actual borders.

One Question: How will you implement the Confederation of the Rhine?

Presumably with a number of alliances, like the vanilla setup. Also with the possibility of unification in the future. In the absence of strong pan-German nationalism though, there might be a southern conservative state of Bavaria + south germans and a more liberal northern Westphalia + north germans.

It depends how nerfed Britain needs to be to create an interesting game

This is the critical thing. I think a severe reduction of British power would make for a more interesting, or at least different, game. The big losers in the Napoleonic Wars (France and Spain) lost most of their colonial empires and tended to be stuck in a cycle of revolution and violence. It may not be the most plausible, but I think it will tend towards the most interesting. Also, this will start in 1836, so we have some time to propose further changes. In our timeline Britain was fairly economically devastated and socially restless from the Napoleonic Wars, imagine what a loss would have brought! I might even start the game with an English Republic revolution against the UK (the way VIP does Carlist wars) with the republic's victory resulting in the UK retreating to Scotland and the freedom of Ireland.

but I thought we could also fiddle with the time-line around the war of 1812.

Absolutely. If Napoleon is able to substantially injure the British fleet by, say, 1813 or '14, simply due to sheer numbers, I think that the war of 1812 will go fairly differently. Possibly with a US annexation of Ontario and a return of French Quebec? Though I think the US would demand a St. Lawrence river border with Quebec. That's the way I have it set up right now.

My thoughts on this are that it would cause an early slavery problem, what with the inclusion of a number of new Northern states and no guaranteed weak Mexico (since it still belongs to Spain) to expand into. Thus, we have an early Civil... Disagreement and a CSA or equivalent split before game start. I was planning to include a border Indian Territory state as a buffer zone. The USA would actually be more like New England, Upper Midwest, plus Canada. The real conflict in America could come from these two racing to grab land across the continent.

then Russia could have forced French concessions to buy their neutrality

I gave them Austrian Galicia, and I can probably hand them those two provinces you mentioned. I don't think Russian neutrality is that difficult to accept, as they were essentially neutral (though not cooperating with the continental system) until Napoleon invaded them. I would like to keep Warsaw in a union with Saxony though.

I think to be honest that Brazil would not be happy with receiving the King of Portugal, and that rather they'd have had an easier time becoming independent

Brazil will probably start under the king, but that doesn't mean they'll stay that way! (yay events!)

What of Spain's colonies, with the French alliance strong, would the British have taken their Caribbean provinces?

Ah, this is one of the more interesting questions. Without the replacement of the Bourbons to trigger revolutions in the Americas, the Spanish empire could totter on for at least a little while longer. I think sovereignty movements would arise, but less revolutionary. I think there will be a Vicroyalty of New Granada, Peru, La Plata, and New Spain along with Captaincy's of Guatemala and Chile. These will start as Spanish satellites or dominions but won't stay that way. Spain will probably be one of the most different to play countries from regular Victoria, it will definitely be one of the great powers.

Would there have been pressure from the populace to form a united Kingdom of Scandinavia capable of standing up to the French puppet-masters?

Haha, this is what I intend - a Denmark run Scandinavian nation. Might even come into conflict with US-Canada if it begins to fill in the void in upper Canada left from Britain's fall.

What about Italy, how do the people receive their French imposed rulers? Probably not well, given their resentment of Austria OTL... Could Austria force the unification of Italy through in reverse of the real life situation?

Oooh, I hadn't thought of that. Austrian meddling in Italy to weaken French power is a great idea. Possibly even the promise of carving up Illyria.

What about the Balkans, does Russia impose a system of Slav-friendly rule in the south? And how about Greece, do they manage to win more concessions from the Turks after the latter has been beaten up by the Russians?

I have Wallachia and Moldavia annexed by Russia (Napoleon did promise Alexander that his border would be the Danube...). Greece is significantly larger, and has cores on Western Anatolia since the powerful Russia and weaker Ottomans made the Megali idea more plausible.

However, that doesn't mean everything is great for Russia. I'm considering a Presidential Dictatorship under Speransky, whose never goes out of favor because of closer France-Russian ties. Speransky is able to significantly reform Russia, making Alexander a figurehead at best. But his plans to increase local authority will probably backfire with an early revolution in Russia (with Bakunin involved somehow).

Without the Congress of Vienna to basically guarantee the Balance of Power, and the lack of a clear hyperpower like the UK, I think that war and civil unrest would be much more common. In fact, I'm planning on calling the scenario "Pax Napoleon" as sort of a sarcastic dig on the fact that there will be relatively little peace in this time.

 

[Evans]

Napoleon's peace? I'd call it Pax Francia or whatever the French call their nation in Latin-speak

 

[Andrelvis]

Pax Gallica?

 

[Varning]

I've been chipping away at all the things that need to be done (flags, most recently).

How about an idependent Courland?? Could be a nice effect from Russian defeat.

Courland might be a revolter state in the chaos that followed Speranksy's dictatorship.

As for the name, yeah Pax Francia or Gallica might make more sense. Though Pax Gallica sounds like a sci-fi series more than anything else. :wacko:

I've got a few pictures to post... hope putting up this many is okay with the mods, not using too much bandwidth or something...

This is the British breakaway state of East India!

Here you can see the flags for Napoleonic Italy, Etruria, and Naples. If you look to the upper right you can see the Kingdom of Illyria.

South America:
1) Brazil, tenuously under control of the Portuguese King
2) Viceroyalty of La Plata
3) Captaincy of Chile
4) Viceroyalty of Peru
5) Viceroyalty of New Granada
6) French controlled Guyana

The Spanish states are more powerful and centralized, though that doesn't mean they won't break away from their mother country.

North America:
1) Quebec, a French satellite that will experience pressure from its American neighbor
2)The United States
3)The Confederate States
4)Indian Federation, a buffer zone between the two
5)New Spain, which is more aggressive territorially (colonial buildings in Oregon and Idaho)
6) Spanish Caribbean, with control over Jamaica and the Bahamas. Also note that France finally came back and took care of those annoying revolters in Haiti.

New Spain will probably be subject to a joint attack from the US and CSA, sparked by American settlers revolting in Texas and California. The result will probably be the CSA grabbing Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico while the US gets Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and California.

And finally, the English Revolution:

1)The United Kingdom, which holds mainly the unindustrialized regions of the country. If they lose (which the AI will be designed to usually do), the monarchy will essentially be pushed back to Scotland.
2)The Republic of England, caught between conservatives such as Chartists and Anti-Jacobins and liberals like the Utopian Socialists.
3) Ireland broke away in the chaos of the English revolution, and the UK was unable to maintain her claims on the country. They are a liberal constitutional monarchy.

 

[Taylor]

Looks fun! But why is there a CSA? How does Nappy winning his war relate to the US splitting up?

I especially like the UK civil war idea.

 

[Andrelvis]

Just to note, the northernmost Chilean province should go to Peru and the second and third northernmost ones should go to La Plata. Chile only conquered these in the late 19th century, and they were territories of their respective viceroyalties.