It's pretty simple. Move all of the diplomatic actions currently in the espionage idea into different levels of diplomatic tech, and then have the idea simply make them stronger.
Brainstorm: How should we improve/fix Espionage system
- Thread starter Metz
- Start date
-
We will be taking the forums down for scheduled maintenance on Tuesday, May 22nd 2023 at around 8:00 CDT / 13:00 UTC for up to an hour hour.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
So maybe only reset progress bar. But it seems strange that: wow, they did catch us (and probably executed or expelled) but we continue regardless and voila in next 50 day we have new shiny claim and CB.
Currently claims are equivalent to no-CB CB without penalties but limited to neighbors only with icing: lowered coring cost (which btw is somewhat absurd as well)
Having the ability to send a spy to 'breach a fort' in a province seems like a very cool idea. It won't do anything except breach the fort.
- 1
In my personal opinion, espionage should be available to every country, some options could be left in idea, some options could be tied to diplomatic tech unlocking along the way.
Support rebels should be more informative, and supporting rebels should increase chance of rebels progressing instead of just increasing unrest.
It should also show how progressed are they so you know if they are about to revolt and money spent on supporting is actually worth it..
Support rebels should be more informative, and supporting rebels should increase chance of rebels progressing instead of just increasing unrest.
It should also show how progressed are they so you know if they are about to revolt and money spent on supporting is actually worth it..
In EU4 they removed the EU3 "spy" agent, because very few players used spies properly, and many did not like the mechanics.
Now, everything a spy did is done by a diplomat instead, under the "Covert Actions" diplomatic action group.
The only exception is the "Spymaster" advisor, which resembles EU3's.
This approach is undoubtely easier to learn, master and use, but I still miss the old system.
To answer the OP's question: "What do you guys think?"...
-Recreate the "Spy" agent in EU4.
-Make the "Covert Actions" diplomatic actions available to the Spy instead of the Diplomat
-Make the needed adjustments to remove diplomatic bonuses/boosts from events, ideas, decisions, etc. who have anything to do with espionage and boost the Spy instead
(i.e. in the Espionage Idea group, you do not get 1 additional diplomat, you get an additional Spy)
-...
-profit
********************************************************************************************************************
Final thoughts...I enjoyed the spies in EU3 a lot, but many complained about the huge impact on the game they had in the hands of skilled players (especially MP, where humans do not enjoy the AI 'defences' against revolt risk and much more), so they got removed.
But now it's not vanilla EU4 anymore...inside DLCs, you can already find a lot of things either more complicated to master than EU3 spies, or with a bigger impact upon the game, or both.
They could restore the Spy agent and it would only be a nice addition to the game imo.
Now, everything a spy did is done by a diplomat instead, under the "Covert Actions" diplomatic action group.
The only exception is the "Spymaster" advisor, which resembles EU3's.
This approach is undoubtely easier to learn, master and use, but I still miss the old system.
To answer the OP's question: "What do you guys think?"...
-Recreate the "Spy" agent in EU4.
-Make the "Covert Actions" diplomatic actions available to the Spy instead of the Diplomat
-Make the needed adjustments to remove diplomatic bonuses/boosts from events, ideas, decisions, etc. who have anything to do with espionage and boost the Spy instead
(i.e. in the Espionage Idea group, you do not get 1 additional diplomat, you get an additional Spy)
-...
-profit
********************************************************************************************************************
Final thoughts...I enjoyed the spies in EU3 a lot, but many complained about the huge impact on the game they had in the hands of skilled players (especially MP, where humans do not enjoy the AI 'defences' against revolt risk and much more), so they got removed.
But now it's not vanilla EU4 anymore...inside DLCs, you can already find a lot of things either more complicated to master than EU3 spies, or with a bigger impact upon the game, or both.
They could restore the Spy agent and it would only be a nice addition to the game imo.
I am with mudcrabmerchant on this one. Without completely reworking the way covert actions work now, I would say: Just like with Forced March, the Espionage Actions should be available to everyone.
Besides boosting those through modifiers like spy defense, offence and an additional diplomat etc, Espionage Ideas should give stability bonuses like reduced revoltrisk (state inquisition), religious tolerance (blackmail religious leaders?), and maybe even some light military bonuses like -10% land attrition (rallying the population, scouting). I think those fit thematically very well and would make the idea group a competitive alternative for a lot of countries.
Besides boosting those through modifiers like spy defense, offence and an additional diplomat etc, Espionage Ideas should give stability bonuses like reduced revoltrisk (state inquisition), religious tolerance (blackmail religious leaders?), and maybe even some light military bonuses like -10% land attrition (rallying the population, scouting). I think those fit thematically very well and would make the idea group a competitive alternative for a lot of countries.
- 1
One does not simply add -10 land attrition to the game its already possible to go to -100 dunno what would happen if you hit 110
Ledger only available with player bonuses turned on? so then less experienced players can turn that on and not get achievements
One does not simply add -10 land attrition to the game its already possible to go to -100 dunno what would happen if you hit 110
Good point, the actual numbers and modifiers were merely a suggestion. I think for example +Reinforcerment Speed would make sense, too.
I used Espionage in my prussia game for a laugh or 2. It is better in the early game, when the % of discovery is very low. By mid to late game, the amount of spy defence bonuses add up, making the odds of your person being discovered very high. On top of this, the devs made the cool down 5 years after discovery.(1 or 2 years max would of been enough) It makes trying to do anything productive like supporting rebels or sabotaging relations barely possible. As of right now, I would say only take it for lols or in the early game. Support rebels and the one that adds unrest + lower legitmacy is a powerful combo, but that is 2 diplos.
Then you have the issue that supporting a large amount of rebels will kill your income, which in the early game is not the greatest. You are also eating up an important resource, a diplomat. Those are important through out the game but i would say they are the most important early game.
You would need to make the effects better on top of making them cheaper, and making it useful for anything past the early and maybe mid game.
Another issue is that you can not see the progress of rebellions in a country, let alone the ones you are supporting.(AFAIK) To me, this seems like something that should be added a long time ago. It would be better if you could just see it from the prov. tab, rather in the dip screen for the country.
If they were to scrap this idea group, and make it be like forced march, requiring dip tech to get it, it may be for the better. It would make dip tech more important, and with other "reforms"(not just ones i mentioned, but basically an overhaul) to the espionage part of the game, make it much more enjoyable.
Then you have the issue that supporting a large amount of rebels will kill your income, which in the early game is not the greatest. You are also eating up an important resource, a diplomat. Those are important through out the game but i would say they are the most important early game.
You would need to make the effects better on top of making them cheaper, and making it useful for anything past the early and maybe mid game.
Another issue is that you can not see the progress of rebellions in a country, let alone the ones you are supporting.(AFAIK) To me, this seems like something that should be added a long time ago. It would be better if you could just see it from the prov. tab, rather in the dip screen for the country.
If they were to scrap this idea group, and make it be like forced march, requiring dip tech to get it, it may be for the better. It would make dip tech more important, and with other "reforms"(not just ones i mentioned, but basically an overhaul) to the espionage part of the game, make it much more enjoyable.
- 3
Locking out information people already have access too is just going to upset people so it seems unlikely to happen. Likewise Paradox going back on diplomats being used for espionage seems like a rather big change to ask for.
The main problem is that the interesting espionage stuff is locked behind an idea group, and a diplomatic one at that. We already have colonisation pretty much locked behind a diplo idea group and that's bad enough as it is.
So first we want to make espionage more attractive, that means more options more than anything. Right now you can fabricate a claim, justify a trade conflict and support rebels, that's it. Let's look at making espionage the dark side of diplomacy. I have a mass of ideas for possible actions but let's stick to a few. But first the key points.
Espionage tab: We’re going to need one for the information you can get.
Penalties for failure: Getting locked out of a country for a bad roll leaves you fate up to the dice, instead make caught espionage actions cause a AE penalty, a relations hit with the target and a temporary buff to the target’s spy defence (that does stack if they catch multiple actions). Suddenly you have to be careful with your espionage least you anger everyone and make your target so on guard you’ll never get anything past them. Also actions should fail if caught, the exposure undermines the entire action, but you can always try again if you think the risk if worth it.
Control and costs: Make an espionage maintenance slider, this allows control over your espionage. The cost would be based on how many espionage actions you’re either attempting or have ongoing. Alongside this align espionage to diplomats fully, have secret relationships use a diplo relationship slot the same way open ones do (so multiple in the same country still only use one slot and ones in a country you have an open relationship with only use one) instead of diplomats having to sit around and babysit things (they don’t need to for trade power transfer, alliances and such do they?). This not only makes sense (your diplomat corps is covering for your spies after all) but also gives an interesting choice, do you use your relationship slots to make yourself stronger (allies) or you enemies’ weaker (secret relationships with groups inside their country)?
So let’s break espionage actions into three types, secret relationships (which use a relationship slot, require a diplomat to establish (establishing take a short time and if the diplomat is caught during that time the attempt fails) and can mean providing money to a group), temporary actions (forging claims, stealing information, that kind of stuff, a diplomat tries this action and it goes like forging a claim works now except the attempt fails if they are caught) and continuous actions (this ties up the diplomat).
So for our three types what are the kind of things you’d do? Here’s a few ideas I’ve got.
Secret relationships:
Subsidise rebels: Same basic system as now, you spend a certain amount a month to boost unrest, however the Espionage tab now shows you the unrest of the provinces where the rebels you’re subsidising will spawn. Alongside this however the unrest boost no longer comes all at once, instead it ticks up bit by bit over time until it’s at maximum effectiveness.
Infiltrating administration: Pulls back fog of war but does so bit by bit starting at the capital. Also could give other info that’s then shown in espionage tab.
Infiltrate counter-intelligence: Boosts your spy offence against the target country.
Temporary actions:
Fabricate claim: Same basic idea as now.
Justify trade conflict: Same as now.
Assassinations:?
Targeted destruction of buildings:?
False flag operation: Gives you an insult CB on the target.
Cause insult against third party:?
Round up opposition: Targeted at your own vassal, causes a drop in liberty desire that decays over time.
Steal battle plans: Gives a short bonus when fighting against the target country.
Continuous actions:
Undermine legitimacy/republican tradition: Causes legitimacy/republican tradition to tick down.
Tarnish reputation: Gives a negative to target’s diplo rep.
Compromise military logistics: Causes target to have slowed reinforce speed.
Were down war desire: Causes war exhaustion to rise faster.
So working on the basis of stuff like that we come to the actual idea group. Here’s what I’m thinking.
Expert spies: +25% Spy offence
Vetting: +25% national spy defence
Wolf in sheep’s clothing: +1 Diplomats
Speedy recruitment: Reduction to time required for covert actions
Deniability: Reduction to negative impacts of getting caught
War time security: +30% national spy defence when at war
International network: +1 Diplomatic relations
Bonus: +50% rebel support efficiency
The main problem is that the interesting espionage stuff is locked behind an idea group, and a diplomatic one at that. We already have colonisation pretty much locked behind a diplo idea group and that's bad enough as it is.
So first we want to make espionage more attractive, that means more options more than anything. Right now you can fabricate a claim, justify a trade conflict and support rebels, that's it. Let's look at making espionage the dark side of diplomacy. I have a mass of ideas for possible actions but let's stick to a few. But first the key points.
Espionage tab: We’re going to need one for the information you can get.
Penalties for failure: Getting locked out of a country for a bad roll leaves you fate up to the dice, instead make caught espionage actions cause a AE penalty, a relations hit with the target and a temporary buff to the target’s spy defence (that does stack if they catch multiple actions). Suddenly you have to be careful with your espionage least you anger everyone and make your target so on guard you’ll never get anything past them. Also actions should fail if caught, the exposure undermines the entire action, but you can always try again if you think the risk if worth it.
Control and costs: Make an espionage maintenance slider, this allows control over your espionage. The cost would be based on how many espionage actions you’re either attempting or have ongoing. Alongside this align espionage to diplomats fully, have secret relationships use a diplo relationship slot the same way open ones do (so multiple in the same country still only use one slot and ones in a country you have an open relationship with only use one) instead of diplomats having to sit around and babysit things (they don’t need to for trade power transfer, alliances and such do they?). This not only makes sense (your diplomat corps is covering for your spies after all) but also gives an interesting choice, do you use your relationship slots to make yourself stronger (allies) or you enemies’ weaker (secret relationships with groups inside their country)?
So let’s break espionage actions into three types, secret relationships (which use a relationship slot, require a diplomat to establish (establishing take a short time and if the diplomat is caught during that time the attempt fails) and can mean providing money to a group), temporary actions (forging claims, stealing information, that kind of stuff, a diplomat tries this action and it goes like forging a claim works now except the attempt fails if they are caught) and continuous actions (this ties up the diplomat).
So for our three types what are the kind of things you’d do? Here’s a few ideas I’ve got.
Secret relationships:
Subsidise rebels: Same basic system as now, you spend a certain amount a month to boost unrest, however the Espionage tab now shows you the unrest of the provinces where the rebels you’re subsidising will spawn. Alongside this however the unrest boost no longer comes all at once, instead it ticks up bit by bit over time until it’s at maximum effectiveness.
Infiltrating administration: Pulls back fog of war but does so bit by bit starting at the capital. Also could give other info that’s then shown in espionage tab.
Infiltrate counter-intelligence: Boosts your spy offence against the target country.
Temporary actions:
Fabricate claim: Same basic idea as now.
Justify trade conflict: Same as now.
Assassinations:?
Targeted destruction of buildings:?
False flag operation: Gives you an insult CB on the target.
Cause insult against third party:?
Round up opposition: Targeted at your own vassal, causes a drop in liberty desire that decays over time.
Steal battle plans: Gives a short bonus when fighting against the target country.
Continuous actions:
Undermine legitimacy/republican tradition: Causes legitimacy/republican tradition to tick down.
Tarnish reputation: Gives a negative to target’s diplo rep.
Compromise military logistics: Causes target to have slowed reinforce speed.
Were down war desire: Causes war exhaustion to rise faster.
So working on the basis of stuff like that we come to the actual idea group. Here’s what I’m thinking.
Expert spies: +25% Spy offence
Vetting: +25% national spy defence
Wolf in sheep’s clothing: +1 Diplomats
Speedy recruitment: Reduction to time required for covert actions
Deniability: Reduction to negative impacts of getting caught
War time security: +30% national spy defence when at war
International network: +1 Diplomatic relations
Bonus: +50% rebel support efficiency
- 1
This point, precisely.
Getting caught in whatever spy action you are doing (especially Fabricate Claims) should nullify the result, if not it's just a little relation penalty that sometimes is 100% irrelevant.
If everyone can use Fabricate claims knowing the success ratio is 100% and he *might* get a small penalty if caught, it is the reason why many say creating claims is too easy.
Espionage actions should all be hard and as less random as possible (with perhaps a fixed AE amount no matter if caught or not), with Espionage idea group lessening the penalties and increasing the speed of such actions.
Just like Forced March is part of a tech, all espionage actions should be part of the diplomatic tech.
And in case you want your espionage actions to be successful, you should know you have to get the Espionage idea group.
1. Eliminate the Espionage idea group.
Take the current set of Espionage ideas and spread them across other groups. That way, your nation will specialize in different types of espionage depending on which idea groups you select. Each nation will have various strengths and weaknesses in this area. Replace the idea group with a new one formed from the pieces grabbed from other idea groups where former Espionage ideas were inserted. Label it something reasonable for the resulting accumulation of benefits.
2. Make the ledger values blank (or labeled with a ?) for nations that you have no information on.
You should have information on your allies, vassals, suzerain, etc. HREmperor could perhaps get info on member states.
3. Add a new option to gather information about a state.
To get info from other states, you must perform an espionage action (available to everyone) that requires sending a diplomat. It's an instant-effect action, so it won't keep your diplomat tied up, and you'll have that nation's information for some amount of time (base 1-5 years or so, improved with ideas and other effects). This action has a fail state that results in a slight opinion hit (but still provides the information).
4. Split spy bonuses (offense and defense) into different classifications, but make them "cheaper" / easier to get / packaged with other bonuses.
The idea here is that the average nation will be good at resisting certain types of spy activities but weak at others. That way, your nation (with your own specialized options based on idea groups chosen) will find espionage useful against some nations but not others based on how their defenses match your strengths.
5. Make claim fabrication riskier, or even lock it behind an idea.
Before you pounce on the Disagree button, read on. The idea is that claim fabrication should be good if your nation is strong at it and the target nation is weak against that class of espionage activities, but in other circumstances it might be way too risky, costly, or ineffective. Of course if we do this, we need to add something to replace it so the game doesn't stagnate...
6. Add a diplomatic option to spread propaganda / drum up an excuse for war.
This would (after a timer resolves, perhaps 1 year like claim fabrication currently) provide a general-purpose CB against a target nation, perhaps with a small reduced cost for border provinces (but no AE reduction). This would be available to everyone and cannot fail, but the target nation will be notified the moment you start the activity, will take a huge relations penalty, and the AI will do everything it can to scramble for war readiness. Perhaps it gets that same CB back on you, too. You can't use this action against allies, vassals, or nations with which you have high relations.
Take the current set of Espionage ideas and spread them across other groups. That way, your nation will specialize in different types of espionage depending on which idea groups you select. Each nation will have various strengths and weaknesses in this area. Replace the idea group with a new one formed from the pieces grabbed from other idea groups where former Espionage ideas were inserted. Label it something reasonable for the resulting accumulation of benefits.
2. Make the ledger values blank (or labeled with a ?) for nations that you have no information on.
You should have information on your allies, vassals, suzerain, etc. HREmperor could perhaps get info on member states.
3. Add a new option to gather information about a state.
To get info from other states, you must perform an espionage action (available to everyone) that requires sending a diplomat. It's an instant-effect action, so it won't keep your diplomat tied up, and you'll have that nation's information for some amount of time (base 1-5 years or so, improved with ideas and other effects). This action has a fail state that results in a slight opinion hit (but still provides the information).
4. Split spy bonuses (offense and defense) into different classifications, but make them "cheaper" / easier to get / packaged with other bonuses.
The idea here is that the average nation will be good at resisting certain types of spy activities but weak at others. That way, your nation (with your own specialized options based on idea groups chosen) will find espionage useful against some nations but not others based on how their defenses match your strengths.
5. Make claim fabrication riskier, or even lock it behind an idea.
Before you pounce on the Disagree button, read on. The idea is that claim fabrication should be good if your nation is strong at it and the target nation is weak against that class of espionage activities, but in other circumstances it might be way too risky, costly, or ineffective. Of course if we do this, we need to add something to replace it so the game doesn't stagnate...
6. Add a diplomatic option to spread propaganda / drum up an excuse for war.
This would (after a timer resolves, perhaps 1 year like claim fabrication currently) provide a general-purpose CB against a target nation, perhaps with a small reduced cost for border provinces (but no AE reduction). This would be available to everyone and cannot fail, but the target nation will be notified the moment you start the activity, will take a huge relations penalty, and the AI will do everything it can to scramble for war readiness. Perhaps it gets that same CB back on you, too. You can't use this action against allies, vassals, or nations with which you have high relations.
- 2
Then I suppose you should mod the game not to play with dice rolls when armies are fighting, and eliminate the MTTH for events (to name a few).
I suggest you to play Chess instead of EU4, if you do not like randomness...
Taking in-game actions to mitigate the impact of combat randomness to the point that it is not a crapshoot is a lot easier (by and large) than mitigating the impact of espionage detection randomness under a regime where detected CB fabrication not only produces 7.5 Base AE but also fails outright.
Seriously, there's a difference between "crapshoot" and "contains randomly determined factors".
Who said anything about the defenders being the ones doing the treachery? More than just the garrison lives in the fort.
As for a few other comments, treachery has always been a big part of siege warfare, whether it's bribing someone to open a gate, like Bohemond did at the siege of Antioch in 1097, faking orders of surrender, as Baibar did at Krak des Chevaliers in 1271, using secret agents to infiltrate the city prior to approach, like the Mongols liked to do, or someone inside the castle flat out betraying the defenders, as a monk did in 1676 at Solovetsky Monastery. Some form of deception or treachery should be in the game's model of siege warfare, unless you want to argue that this is covered by the die rolls (fill in your own story why you had an early breach). And it seems to me that the nearly entirely useless espionage idea set is a good way to model it.
The chance to forge a claim allows you a CB against that foreign nation, plus you get a discount on core creation.
That feature is much more influential in both short and long term game, considering the saving of ADM points alone, not mentioning being able to DoW without stabhits (which is the cornerstone of any large conquest).
If "Fabricate Claim" would abort the claim upon discovering, very few would expand past their small region.
- 1
To make Espionage valuable it would need to do three things.
1. Locked Ledger on Ironman. Spies should provide all the info the Ledger should.
2. Installing your own dynasties on foreign thrones and killing other rulers to get said thrones. This shouldn't be easy, or common, but should be a potential if you focus on doing so.
3. Being able to completely fund a revolt in an enemy nation, such as Russian nationalists in Lithuania as Russia. (A major problem Russia has in getting it's land from them).
These three changes/mechanics would make Espionage much more valuable.
1. Locked Ledger on Ironman. Spies should provide all the info the Ledger should.
2. Installing your own dynasties on foreign thrones and killing other rulers to get said thrones. This shouldn't be easy, or common, but should be a potential if you focus on doing so.
3. Being able to completely fund a revolt in an enemy nation, such as Russian nationalists in Lithuania as Russia. (A major problem Russia has in getting it's land from them).
These three changes/mechanics would make Espionage much more valuable.
Took me 200 hours or so of game time before I even considered looking at military sizes before declaring war. Even now I care far more about a nations manpower than standing army. I don't think most beginners spend time looking through pages of notes, though I could be wrong. Thus I am all for locking the ledger.
Last edited: