Brainstorm: How should we improve/fix Espionage system

[Metz]

I have posted previously regarding the issues with espionage. It has so much potential yet the use is highly limited if you don't select the idea as one of your 8. When it comes to idea vs. idea, espionage would ultimately not be chosen as it is trumped by direct combat and trade bonuses. Espionage offers complimentary stuff to go along with everything else, but it's just not worth it, and all those actions should be available from the start.

I posted in another thread:

I think espionage should be scraped and replaced with mercenaries idea which boosts mercenaries in all senses (cost, maintenance, availability, etc.) and it should also give piracy and privateer bonuses.

Espionage should then just be part of normal game play, having its own funding slider to simulate how much you are investing in a network of spies. Plus you should be able to create spy hubs in trade node provinces and capitals and it should clear fog of war.

Espionage is highly useful and can be part of the fun that is EU4. If we scrape the idea and replace it with mercenaries, we can pack all the mercenaries boosts in the new mercenary idea. With the other ideas that offer mercenary perks, we can replace those perks with things that are more fitting for the ideas such as innovative, plutocracy, administrative, etc.

Now it would be interesting to have a espionage slider, where it is expensive to pay a network so it would be used more by countries like Venice, Genoa, Netherlands, and the Hansa at first. As the other nations grow and become stronger monetarily, they too will be able to expand their networks.

It could work 2 ways:

1) Have spies be like merchants where you place them in provinces and pay for their upkeep in a slider(you prioritize which should get more budget). The more you pay, and the higher your diplomacy tech is, the more fog of war they lift. At first it only shows whats going on in the province they are in and as you tech up, the neighboring provinces, and then more of the surroundings.

2) Have spies be dealt with through the diplomacy screen and have them only be able to be placed in capitals, trade node centers, and forts. As upkeep is raised, you can see more of what is going on.


Or maybe a combination of both ideas and have them be placeable just like merchants but just in certain areas. Although realistically, you should be able to send a spy where ever you want him to.


So what do you guys think? Are you fine with the current system or would you prefer for it to change and be more useable without needing to have the idea selected?

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Espionage should remain as an Idea, but it should also be more available. Trade is available to everybody, but it's still in as an Idea, you know?

 

[JKiller96]

New espionage tab. New spies that are placeable like the diplomat, tab displays information about spy's actions or information they gain (info about enemy etc) would be interesting. also not having to send diplomats to claim stuff..

 

[yerm]

Espionage needs to very dramatically tone down the amount of diplomat parking involved. Support rebels, for example, is a great money sink but sucks because it ties up a diplomat - stop having it tie up a diplomat, just like an embargo doesn't. Espionage would get used more if it was simply more available and convenient to use.

Also, fabricate claims REALLY needs a fail mechanism. The harsh AE penalty is bad; instead, have a caught fabrication end and block new attempts for years, forcing players to actually have to adapt to claims and use non-conquest cbs in their absence.

 

[III.Selim]

espionage idea would be preferable if it has more stuff like allowing fog of war to dissappear, giving enemy units more attrition in core provinces, cheaper and more effective supporting revolt etc.

+ it would be more awesome than support revolt if you could be able to increase war exhaustion of your enemy. (like you spend x gold each month to make your enemy gain x war exhaustion each month; more solid result than spending money on uncertain support revolt stuff)

 

[WeissRaben]

The moment it stops using diplomats and uses instead its own envoy, it becomes instantly better.

 

[Merrivale]

They should tie it into the new uber fort system. There should be a chance that the defenders of a fort defect to the attacker based on cores, culture and religion. So someone defending a wrong culture, wrong religion, non-core against someone with the right culture, religion, and a core, would be in serious trouble of having the fort simply give up. This would be be highly effected by the espionage idea set: one idea should increase the chances of a fort defecting to you and another should decrease the chances of one of your own forts defecting.

 

[Metz]

Defect would be too extreme especially if the fort has 10,000+ garrison (level 2 fort), but it could cripple morale.

 

[Heinrikr]

How about not giving us vital information for free? As it is now, we get much important info from the ledger. Army size, leaders, even national income... such info is valuable, and who doesnt look at the ledger to see if a target is weak enough? info like that is what spies should give us, but we are given it for free. Also, we can see the diplomatic actions of everyone else. E.g., if i improve relations with a country, everyone sees that, but what if i want to be discrete? That info should be hidden as well.

They should tie it into the new uber fort system. There should be a chance that the defenders of a fort defect to the attacker based on cores, culture and religion. So someone defending a wrong culture, wrong religion, non-core against someone with the right culture, religion, and a core, would be in serious trouble of having the fort simply give up. This would be be highly effected by the espionage idea set: one idea should increase the chances of a fort defecting to you and another should decrease the chances of one of your own forts defecting.

No, because everyone is smart enough to know that you ought not garrison your forts with unreliable and potentially tretcherous locals!

 

[Aries666]

espionage idea would be preferable if it has more stuff like allowing fog of war to dissappear, giving enemy units more attrition in core provinces, cheaper and more effective supporting revolt etc.

+ it would be more awesome than support revolt if you could be able to increase war exhaustion of your enemy. (like you spend x gold each month to make your enemy gain x war exhaustion each month; more solid result than spending money on uncertain support revolt stuff)

Have you used espionage? Infiltrate administration makes FOW disappear and the finisher is +50% rebel support efficiency.

 

[Aries666]

How about not giving us vital information for free? As it is now, we get much important info from the ledger. Army size, leaders, even national income... such info is valuable, and who doesnt look at the ledger to see if a target is weak enough? info like that is what spies should give us, but we are given it for free. Also, we can see the diplomatic actions of everyone else. E.g., if i improve relations with a country, everyone sees that, but what if i want to be discrete? That info should be hidden as well.

No, because everyone is smart enough to know that you ought not garrison your forts with unreliable and potentially tretcherous locals!

The problem with locking down the ledger is that it penalises less experienced players. Players with more experience can usually pretty accurately gauge military strength etc without looking at the ledger. By locking the ledger you force less experienced players to take espionage to get the same info they had previously which in turn weakens their position as they have to forgo an alternative group.

 

[Sabotage13]

I don't think I've ever put a single MP into Espionage ideas. They could axe the system entirely and I probably wouldn't notice...

 

[Heinrikr]

The problem with locking down the ledger is that it penalises less experienced players. Players with more experience can usually pretty accurately gauge military strength etc without looking at the ledger. By locking the ledger you force less experienced players to take espionage to get the same info they had previously which in turn weakens their position as they have to forgo an alternative group.

Perhaps, but it really does defeat the point of espionage if we are given vital info for free. I should add that I want espionage to be open at start,rather than requiring an idea group to unlock, perhaps getting more advanced by techs. I dont think an espionage idea group is a good thing at all.

 

[Metz]

Espionage could be progressively built on a country per country basis and as you tech up, the progress is faster. Same way how you support heir for Poland, it takes a while for you to have a decent chance of having an heir be elected king in Poland, so the same should be with establishing foreign networks. Of course there can be setbacks or breakthroughs which increase your network's power and can allow you to do certain actions that you can't do with a weak network. Ultimately, the higher level activities a network should be allowed to do are start pretender rebellion (which you then decide its strength by how much you invest in it through its whole time), and assassinate ruler or heir (should be difficult but highly rewarding for those who invest time into claiming thrones and installing dynasties).

 

[Umbrieus]

That the Espionage Idea tree needs a rework we can all agree on. I would: 1. have the opener allow all of the espionage actions. None are good enough on their own to merit a slot. Together they are equivalent of the Religious opener. 2. provide the +25% to spy defense AND spy offense. 3. Keep Privateers +25% embargo / +33% privateer efficiency. 4. +50% rebel support. 5. Shady recruitment is actually okay with -33% covert action relation impact 6.+1 Diplomat 7. Assassinate Ruler 8. Bonus "Stolen technology" ( - 5% tech cost) might be to much but at least it is in keeping with the theme.

The key to my rearrangement is the addition of an Assassinate Ruler Which would be expensive to do and would cost a lot of aggressive expansion if discovered. But could be directed at a ruler or heir.

Alternative additions could include something to help put your dynasty on the throne, maybe through espionage support rebels always allows the support noble rebels (of your dynasty of course). Anything to increase the chance of PU's or Vassal acceptance would be nice.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

1. Give the idea group better general bonuses, representing the passive advantages of having a good spy network and secret police system. It could provide a repressive alternative to Humanism, reducing unrest and years of nationalism. There should be another 1-2 bonuses on top of these that are of significant value.
2. Give everyone access to every espionage action, except perhaps the LoS removing one, and make espionage and the efficiency of spies more important. Players will come to see espionage with a little e as a more fundamental aspect of the game, and so will view the spy benefits of big e Espionage as more valuable.
3. (I don't really want this but it would be the #1 way to make Espionage useful) Strictly limit the ledger in all games, and require espionage actions to get any accurate figures. The actions would be available to everyone, but big E Espionage would greatly increase the efficacy of these actions. The bonus to completing Espionage ideas would be to unlock completely accurate ledger information on any country that you have a diplomat performing any espionage action in.

 

[happymix91]

Rework of ledger or mercenary+espionage idea

 

[Titanius Puffin]

Here are some ideas.
Firstly, supporting rebels and then waiting around for your rebels to 'fire' is pretty frustrating. It's not easy to know how close they are to rebelling, and I've never had a strong idea of how many would rise. Reducing this uncertainty would be welcome. This is after all an act of espionage by my spies. I should be getting some idea of what's going on.

Secondly , I think supporting rebels is still expensive. It sometimes feels like you're paying mercenaries, which is an expensive comparison considering they sometimes still don't rise up. Supporting rebels ought to be cheaper than paying (regular) soldiers, at least if there is a high revolt risk already, after all people already want to rebel. (Even the 50% support rebel bonus to completing the ideas doesn't help). You shouldn't have to pay rebels wages - just help arm them.

Thirdly, there is no ability to assassinate anyone in EU4. Considering how much the game centres around war and strife, this seems a little odd. Maybe there ought to be some kind of mechanic. Queen Elizabeth suffered several attempts on her life, while at least one French Monarch (one of the Henrys?) was assassinated.
Anyway, getting found out for killing a monarch could be a major, major, disgrace (at least in peacetime), but succeeding could be a handy way of destabilising a country and removing a dangerous monarch/general from the game. Republics, not surprisingly, would be somewhat less destabilised.

Any of these ideas would - I hope - provide good reasons for getting one's local spy defence up. Right now, I don't feel it's very important to my game.

 

[zdlugasz]

They should tie it into the new uber fort system. There should be a chance that the defenders of a fort defect to the attacker based on cores, culture and religion. So someone defending a wrong culture, wrong religion, non-core against someone with the right culture, religion, and a core, would be in serious trouble of having the fort simply give up. This would be be highly effected by the espionage idea set: one idea should increase the chances of a fort defecting to you and another should decrease the chances of one of your own forts defecting.

Defenders of forts (especially if we are moving into new system with fewer forts placed in critical places) were not selected from local population, especially if it is wrong religion/culture province with nationalism.

 

[Freudia]

Espionage needs to very dramatically tone down the amount of diplomat parking involved. Support rebels, for example, is a great money sink but sucks because it ties up a diplomat - stop having it tie up a diplomat, just like an embargo doesn't. Espionage would get used more if it was simply more available and convenient to use.

Would be nice. I can agree here.

Also, fabricate claims REALLY needs a fail mechanism. The harsh AE penalty is bad; instead, have a caught fabrication end and block new attempts for years, forcing players to actually have to adapt to claims and use non-conquest cbs in their absence.

The problem with outright blocking conquest CB fabrication is that you arbitrarily punish players with a dice roll, and failing this dice roll results in the player to be unable to do things except take both a hefty stability hit and a hefty AE hit unless they're magically gifted with something like an embargo CB (ie the AI has arbitrarily decided to embargo you). This can result in the game being ridiculously hard to predict and reduces player agency without improving the game at all. This is especially apparent if you fail multiple times in a row, as it can create scenarios where you just wait on timers without any meaningful or engaging gameplay at all.