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Ultrix Prime

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You left the misinterpretation door wide open by greatly increasing vassal liberty desire more or less at the same time that you putt the most effective antidote (well at least for the average player) behind a pay wall. In short you created a big problem that was almost negligible in previous versions of the game and shortly after (or at the same time, atm I can´t recall) you released an effective fix that can only be used by DLC owners.

They create artificial scarcity wherein a paid solution is the answer. But they have pretty much always done this. If that's the topic then you'd have to notice that specialty buildings were removed and the way to get back the diplomat from embassy and one leader from the removal of war college and admiralty is to buy CS so you can upgrade your duchy. But they were rather clear that this is their business model in a post by Johann.

The ultimate problem with this, imo, is that one has to take all changes or none and there's no customization to it. If subject interactions was a feature you could buy standalone but still not run all of CS so that AI nations cannot develop, would you not then be happier?

I'm guessing here that your actual beef is not about money or DLCs but is that you have to take bad with what you consider good/ok or forgo the good/ok to avoid the bad.

Isn't that your real beef with this?
 

thedarkendstar

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Now I agree with the devs this is no reason to go crazy about free speech hear simply no need however I own common sense (great expansion btw) and I do think if the development was tied to building mechanic mentioning one is tied to buying the expansion in patch notes would be reasonable.

Unless I read a post wrong and they already did.
 

Zelius

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They should move to an in game purchase model like others have done rather than away from it imo. I laid out some of the features that would be nice above. Some others that come to mind are having an in game fall customization feature in regular iron man as well as country colors. Some like me would want to buy this on the spot. I can think of a lot of watts having in game purchasing via steam wallet would improve the game greatly.

The current interface should be much more universal such that you never have to exit tla game run to improve it while you're playing short of a full new patch having arrived.

Are more games now running in-game real currency transactions / micro-transactions? Yes.

Do I want that? Nooo-ooo-ooo.
 
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Ultrix Prime

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Are more games now running in-game real currency transactions / micro-transactions? Yes.

Do I want that? Nooo-ooo-ooo.

So you don't want optional features that others appreciate if you don't?

Why must others do without features to make the game more easily customizable exactly?
 

Philadelphus

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Whenever I read one of these types of posts about building slots and Common Sense, I always get this vision of what non-CS owners must imagine CS-owners to be:

Scene: a stereotypical medieval castle, with thunder and lighting in the background. In a room at the top of the tallest tower sits a gamer wearing a shirt saying "I bought Common Sense...but I already had it naturally", stroking a white cat on his lap with an evil grin on his face. Lightning flashes as he opens the province view window and begins giggling uncontrollably. On the province window is a small button, with sparkles coming off of it and animated rainbows running around the outside. Mousing over it his giggling becomes a full-fledged maniacal laugh as a tooltip pops up: "Click me to spend 1 of each monarch point and unlock the full 16 building slots in this province!" His crazy laughter increases in volume, mingling with the periodic thunder crashes outside as he goes from province to province clicking this button, while shrieking madly to himself "Those non-CS owning fools! They'll never know what they're missing! Ahahahaha!"

But seriously, I own Common Sense. It's nothing like that.

I've got probably close to 75 hours of time playing CS now. I can count the number of times I've spent monarch points to get an additional building slot on one hand, and have fingers (plural) left over (and once was just to test out the new feature). And I really don't see that number increasing for me anytime soon. It's really just a waste of monarch points in 99%+ of situations.

If you're playing the typical expanding empire, monarch points will always be better spent on expanding; coring privinces, annexing vassals, rolling generals, reasearch, ideas...it doesn't matter, it will benefit you more than throwing monarch points at a province to get more building slots. The only time you might possibly give the idea a second thought is if the province development ends in 9 (or very barely, 8) and you absolutely must have a fort in that privince. And only if the province doesn't have a single building slot due to terrain, otherwise you'd be better off overall just replacing a building there. Putting your monarch points towards expansion will always give you a better return on the monarch-point-to-building-slots ratio.

The whole point of the new building system was to introduce some actual strategy into this grand strategy game when building buildings; strategy meaning "no more mindlessly building all the buildings in all the provinces, but actually having to make tough choices occasionally when deciding what to build where." Even with CS, it is simply impossible to go back to the old building system; building all the buildings possible in a single province would probably set a Western tech nation back 9 or 10 tech levels. Owning CS doesn't magically return you to the pre-1.12 way of doing things, I'm afraid.

The one situation where the extra slots are useful is the case of playing a small nation that doesn't expand. Development gives you an alternative (and much worse) way of turning monarch points into extra development and building slots besides expansion (and remember, expansion will always give you more of both for the same cost). And that's basically the selling point of Common Sense: making small, non-expanding nations actually maybe viable against their bigger neighbors and more fun to play.

Y'know, back when Johan first said that development improvement would be a CS feature I, like many others, was apprehensive about it. Then I got CS, tried it out, saw how it worked and what it was for, and realized Paradox was perfectly justified in putting it where they did.
 
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Tacticus101

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If that's the topic then you'd have to notice that specialty buildings were removed and the way to get back the diplomat from embassy and one leader from the removal of war college and admiralty is to buy CS so you can upgrade your duchy. But they were rather clear that this is their business model in a post by Johann.

That's simply not true.

Firstly, they added the diplomat and free leader after CS, when people complained that the lack of unique buildings giving a diplomat and leader were significant, in response Paradox added them to government ranks in the following patch, the most requested and popular way to add them.

Secondly, without the DLC you are at Kingdom rank as an independent nation, Duchy as a vassal and Empire if you get it from a decisions (Byzantium, HRE, Ottomans, Ming, etc).
 
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Ultrix Prime

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That's simply not true.

Firstly, they added the diplomat and free leader after CS, when people complained that the lack of unique buildings giving a diplomat and leader were significant, in response Paradox added them to government ranks in the following patch, the most requested and popular way to add them.

Secondly, without the DLC you are at Kingdom rank as an independent nation, Duchy as a vassal and Empire if you get it from a decisions (Byzantium, HRE, Ottomans, Ming, etc).
I haven't played without CS that much so I'll grant the first point about diplomat. The point about leader stands. Further you should take note that I most clearly am not arguing against or about the DLC policy and money ties to features. So do not get bogged down with that. My response was to BarronR and is from the perspective of being one of his viewers.

The recurring issue, putting paid features and such aside (that part is totally irrelevant to my point to him and now you - personally money is just a number to me), is this ->

The super blobbers turn off CS so the AI cannot develop. This in turn removes other features some of them want. So in his case he doesn't want development on but would probably be happy having every other feature in CS turned on or more likely just certain ones.

Thus it is the all or nothing approach to the DLCs that I as well as others do not likr. They could, in my case anyway and probably for others as well, slit the features into individual ones that a player could buy and turn on/off and charge twice the cost of the total DLC and it would be a big improvement as one could play with something unwanted like development off while everything else is on.

Do you understand this point?
 
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Zelius

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So you don't want optional features that others appreciate if you don't?

Why must others do without features to make the game more easily customizable exactly?

I don't want to be literally sold things while playing the game. You know, what the OP was accusing Paradox of doing. At least I think that's what he might've meant.
 
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Ultrix Prime

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I don't want to be literally sold things while playing the game. You know, what the OP was accusing Paradox of doing. At least I think that's what he might've meant.

You don't have to be. In game store functions could be off and totally invisible. But for some of us having an option to turn on that provides this functionality would be worthwhile. I didn't propose banner add pops after all. Rather being able to do something by shift tabbing to the steam interface and executing a transaction and having the purchase applied in game.

I imagine this could be done without offending people sensitive to such things for whatever reason.
 
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Beagá

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I´m way more bothered by the lack of focus and slapping more and more numbers on the game than the DLC policies.
 
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Xinkc

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Shouldnt it be a 30/0/30?

Really should be 30/60/30.

Why can't we view who Agrees and Disagrees with posts anymore, I'm really curious about the OP.

I can think of at least one instance were I accidentally pressed "Disagree" while on my phone and the person decided to go through much of my recent posts and do the same. Might be part of the reason.
 

Tacticus101

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I haven't played without CS that much so I'll grant the first point about diplomat. The point about leader stands. Further you should take note that I most clearly am not arguing against or about the DLC policy and money ties to features. So do not get bogged down with that. My response was to BarronR and is from the perspective of being one of his viewers.

You couldn't get the leader until what, tech 20 anyway, it really doesn't make that much difference. You need Diplomats and leaders more early anyway, so it has actually probably been a buff.

The recurring issue, putting paid features and such aside (that part is totally irrelevant to my point to him and now you - personally money is just a number to me), is this ->

The super blobbers turn off CS so the AI cannot develop. This in turn removes other features some of them want. So in his case he doesn't want development on but would probably be happy having every other feature in CS turned on or more likely just certain ones.

Thus it is the all or nothing approach to the DLCs that I as well as others do not likr. They could, in my case anyway and probably for others as well, slit the features into individual ones that a player could buy and turn on/off and charge twice the cost of the total DLC and it would be a big improvement as one could play with something unwanted like development off while everything else is on.

Do you understand this point?

What you are saying is that you have no interest in balance or a coherent experience, you want to pick and choose the features you want for your own benefit?

Turning off development because it makes a world conquest achievement easier should not be encouraged, things like that are bad and certainly should not be Ironman compatible. It also does not apply only to DLC, it would also have to apply to patches, making balancing the game impossible, multiplayer faintly ridiculous and the game pointless. There is a reason no one gives you the option for that in their games, it creates a nightmare for developers. Also, as you point out, it would require increasing the cost of everything, meaning that those of us (i think probably the majority) who actually want a complete game experience have to pay twice as much in order to buy the DLC. Picking and choosing the individual features of a DLC you want, except for the distinction between cosmetics and features, should not be allowed under any circumstances, if you want to turn off or change features then go play a mod or adjust the defines yourself, it is really quite simple.
 

Zelius

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You don't have to be. In game store functions could be off and totally invisible. But for some of us having an option to turn on that provides this functionality would be worthwhile. I didn't propose banner add pops after all. Rather being able to do something by shift tabbing to the steam interface and executing a transaction and having the purchase applied in game.

I imagine this could be done without offending people sensitive to such things for whatever reason.

Then I expect that's a Valve / Steam thing, you'd have to take it up with them...

Actually, what game has a system where you can add additional content without closing the game? Also, unrelated, but do you seriously have the game running 24/7...
 
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Ultrix Prime

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I´m way more bothered by the lack of focus and slapping more and more numbers on the game than the DLC policies.
My only beef with the DLCs is that it's always all features or none. I find this annoying and suspect being able to buy and turn on/off just ones that a player desires would greatly improve this game.
Then I expect that's a Valve / Steam thing, you'd have to take it up with them...

Actually, what game has a system where you can add additional content without closing the game? Also, unrelated, but do you seriously have the game running 24/7...

On the first point, no, I don't believe you would "have to take it up with them." It's part of the platform functionality for people such as software publishers to use.

As to one example, Dota 2 does this for one. I only play 2 games these years, that being the other.
 

Zelius

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On the first point, no, I don't believe you would "have to take it up with them." It's part of the platform functionality for people such as software publishers to use.

As to one example, Dota 2 does this for one. I only play 2 games these years, that being the other.

But that's a game you play on servers over the internet. You pay cash -> Steam calls up the server -> gives you stuff. Their entire business model requires this to be a smooth process.

More importantly, can you actually buy anything while playing a match? buying stuff from the main menu is not the same thing...

I could be wrong, of course.
 
U

Ultrix Prime

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You couldn't get the leader until what, tech 20 anyway, it really doesn't make that much difference. You need Diplomats and leaders more early anyway, so it has actually probably been a buff.

This was besides the point that I made.


What you are saying is that you have no interest in balance or a coherent experience, you want to pick and choose the features you want for your own benefit?
.

No I am not nor did I say that. I suggest in a civil conversation you not put words in other people's mouths especially by creating a straw man from whole cloth.

*Personally*, since you're trying to personalize this (again, very bad form imo), I play with CS enabled and use development and all the other features as well.

However, I am able to recognize someone else's perspective. I was responding to BarronRodrigueze, a.k.a. Marco on a specific case which is not having vassal interaction and the main thing him actually not liking isn't CS itself but rather losing vassal interactions by turning it off or having to deal with the AI developing to have vassal interactions. So there's a context, #1, that you skipped over entirely having to do with someone else's game play other than mine that I was addressing in the effort to make a suggestion for a more inclusive feature implementation than massive bundling.

So, with him, and others that I have followed as well, there is a conflict in so far as having all the features in 1 bundle limits options whereas it's hardly imbalanced to suggest that for people like him and others that turn off CS to avoid having AI development, having a selective model for buying and turning features on/off would be appealing.

I fully recognize my being able to understand something someone else has written in their (his) context, responding to *him* is something you may have trouble understanding, but that is the context and as before, please skip making up straw men and creating false motivations and the rest. It's unnecessary and unappreciated.
 
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Ultrix Prime

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More importantly, can you actually buy anything while playing a match? buying stuff from the main menu is not the same thing...

I could be wrong, of course.

Yes you can as I described earlier.

edit: and "playing on servers over the internet" actually is *harder* to implement in real time rather than easier as I think you're trying to suggest.
 

Tacticus101

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No I am not nor did I say that. I suggest in a civil conversation you not put words in other people's mouths especially by creating a straw man from whole cloth.

*Personally*, since you're trying to personalize this (again, very bad form imo), I play with CS enabled and use development and all the other features as well.

However, I am able to recognize someone else's perspective. I was responding to BarronRodrigueze, a.k.a. Marco on a specific case which is not having vassal interaction and the main thing him actually not liking isn't CS itself but rather losing vassal interactions by turning it off or having to deal with the AI developing to have vassal interactions. So there's a context, #1, that you skipped over entirely having to do with someone else's game play other than mine that I was addressing in the effort to make a suggestion for a more inclusive feature implementation than massive bundling.

So, with him, and others that I have followed as well, there is a conflict in so far as having all the features in 1 bundle limits options whereas it's hardly imbalanced to suggest that for people like him and others that turn off CS to avoid having AI development, having a selective model for buying and turning features on/off would be appealing.

I fully recognize my being able to understand something someone else has written in their (his) context, responding to *him* is something you may have trouble understanding, but that is the context and as before, please skip making up straw men and creating false motivations and the rest. It's unnecessary and unappreciated.

Ok, you want the ability to pick and choose features for your own benefit and preference?

If so, the rest of my point stands, regardless of how much you want to distract by criticising my personalisation with ironically personal attacks.
 
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Ultrix Prime

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Ok, you want the ability to pick and choose features for your own benefit and preference?

If so, the rest of my point stands, regardless of how much you want to distract by criticising my personalisation with ironically personal attacks.

No, I do not. Again, go back and read. And I did not attack you personally, period. I stated what is commonly considered bad form.

Go back and read BarronRodriguez's post and then my response to him.

As I stated, I personally just play with everything enabled.

But there are, in my experience, a lot of:

other people who do not want the AI to develop provinces that would buy the other features if they could or would buy everything if they could turn that one off

This would potentially make more money for PI and make more players happier.

This was the point. So again, I was responding to someone else in the context of how they play not how I play and suggesting a solution to satisfy both types of players.
 
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