Border issues

[Exel]

I wouldn't want my first comment about Vicky to be a negative one, but the situation forces me to rant some.

The reason is the Finnish borders. The border with Russia is slightly misshaped, but if we put that aside, we have a ridicilous looking border with Sweden and Norway in the north. You could argue that Finland did not exist as an independent nation until 1917 and thus it wouldn't matter, but the border happens to also be the border of Russia and Sweden/Norway. I wonder if the mapper(s) have bothered to take a look at a world map at all when they created that area... it's absolutely terrible. Considering the accuracy of other places in the map I can only wonder why that part is so screwed up...

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Is this a screenshot you're referring to? Which one?

Could you be a bit more specific as to what way it is "terrible"?

Rafiki

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

Originally posted by Exel
The reason is the Finnish borders. The border with Russia is slightly misshaped, but if we put that aside, we have a ridicilous looking border with Sweden and Norway in the north.

Who cares.

I mean I personally don't give a s**t if some of the borders look a bit warped. The outline of the province borders has no effect on the game mechanics, the only thing that matters is having the right provinces bordering each other. To rant about border shape is about as meaningles as complaining about how a flag happens to be represented in the game.

I'm sorry if a come out a little agressive, but I just fail to see the point how these kind of things will affect how good a simulation the game will be.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

I agree, lets stop being so semantic.

If the game is as good as I hope it will be, i wouldn't care even if Australia looked like a warped banana, honestly.

I think it speaks volumes of how good the game seems like it will be, especially with all the silly things people are whinging about due to the lack of anything important they can find to trash.

 

[Exel]

Re: Re: Border issues

Originally posted by Hakkapeliitta
I mean I personally don't give a s**t if some of the borders look a bit warped. The outline of the province borders has no effect on the game mechanics, the only thing that matters is having the right provinces bordering each other. To rant about border shape is about as meaningles as complaining about how a flag happens to be represented in the game.

Realistic borders between nations don't matter? Right... Provinces on the other hand are highly subjective and there's no definite truth about their form, size or anything. In fact there's no such thing as a real province as all of them are more or less made up for gameplay purposes. Borders on the other hand are not debatable - they're history.

Originally posted by rafiki
Is this a screenshot you're referring to? Which one?

Yes I'm referring to a screenshot. You can see it for example here. That is not the one where I originally noticed the situation, but that'll do until I find the better one (I actually watched at it a few days ago and can't remember where it was).

For comparison you can check the map of Finland. That is a map of today's Finland, but it clearly shows what's wrong with the Vicky version...

 

[unmerged(12555)]

I agree. The maps aren't detailed in that area.

 

[Grosshaus]

As you see the maps use a different projection, so Vicky map makes places far north or south a bit wider than they should be. so I don't think there is a big problem with borders between Sweden and Norway.

Another issue is the border with Russia, since Petsamo (the area linking modern Finnish Lapland with Arctic sea) wasn't Finnish territory during autonomy. It was given only afterwards in the 20's. But since the map won't change anymore it's quite pointless to dwell in these.

 

[IEX Totalview]

I always get a kick of threads with frowny faces next to them posted before the game comes out.

 

[unmerged(12555)]

the screenie is here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/images/aar/sytass/Sweden1915.jpg

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

Re: Re: Re: Border issues

Originally posted by Exel
Realistic borders between nations don't matter? Right... Provinces on the other hand are highly subjective and there's no definite truth about their form, size or anything. In fact there's no such thing as a real province as all of them are more or less made up for gameplay purposes. Borders on the other hand are not debatable - they're history.

The game engine probably (if it is like EU & Hoi) doens't care at all about the graphical implementation of the provinces (all it need is to know is what provinces are linked and what is the distance between provinces, and what is the average province topography, vegetation, climate the ethnographic breakdown, etc.)

The provinces are just a net of connected "knots" that contain that contain information that the game engine needs to know. Of course there is also a function that maps this information to a "language" of the human, "the interface", but IMHO the interface is good enough if I can tell by a glance what the values the province has and what the underlying "net" is.

In other words: if the map is easily recognizable and intuitive it's good enough. The real issue is if the information contained in the "knots" is based on reality, but this is a completely separate issue from the graphical implementation of game information.

Cheers, H.

 

[unmerged(2928)]

I do not really care about the shape of a province or border as long as this does not have an impact on gameply.

In this case, in the Victoria map version, Sweden could apparently be invaded by Russians with a fleet in the Barents Sea, and this is an inaccuracy.

We are not dumping the game at all with this comment. I mean I am really eager to get the game, I have preorderd the game and will buy more then one box (english first and then italian version).

I have said in other threads that I am really happy that a group such as Paradox focuses on such game tyypes as EU, HOI and VIC.

But an inaccuracy is an inaccuracy, and remarking it is an act of partecipation.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

is that a Swedish defence in a taken russian province? or is it a swedish province that the fight is happening in?

I assume the Swedes have captured a Russo/Finnish island near turku.

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

Originally posted by Nice

In this case, in the Victoria map version, Sweden could apparently be invaded by Russians with a fleet in the Barents Sea, and this is an inaccuracy.

No it couldn't. The province you are thinking about is not part of Sweden, it the northernmost province of the Grand Duchy of Finland, which the Swedes have invaded themselves.

The only problem there is with this province is the fact that Grosshaus mentioned, i.e. that the 'arm' to the Barents sea was only given to FInland after independence so it should be a separate province. But since we are talking about pre 1920s it doesn't matter much as both that province and the whole Grand Duchy of Finland were part of the Russian empire until 1918.

 

[unmerged(14180)]

Good, i thought so.

 

[Syt]

Originally posted by Hakkapeliitta
No it couldn't. The province you are thinking about is not part of Sweden, it the northernmost province of the Grand Duchy of Finland, which the Swedes have invaded themselves.

Correct. Sweden defended in an enemy province they had occupied.

 

[unmerged(2928)]

Originally posted by Hakkapeliitta
No it couldn't. The province you are thinking about is not part of Sweden, it the northernmost province of the Grand Duchy of Finland, which the Swedes have invaded themselves.

Oops, in fact should have guess it from the screenshot.
Thanks for the info

... then we have to admit that this game is perfect !

 

[unmerged(14180)]

I didn't think Paradox would stuff up their own areas in the way described.....

 

[Grosshaus]

Originally posted by Hakkapeliitta
The only problem there is with this province is the fact that Grosshaus mentioned, i.e. that the 'arm' to the Barents sea was only given to FInland after independence so it should be a separate province. But since we are talking about pre 1920s it doesn't matter much as both that province and the whole Grand Duchy of Finland were part of the Russian empire until 1918.

It shouldn't be a separate province either, it was part of Kola until split from it to be given to Finland for some reason nobody seems to know.

 

[Hakkapeliitta]

Originally posted by Grosshaus
It shouldn't be a separate province either, it was part of Kola until split from it to be given to Finland for some reason nobody seems to know.

I meant in game mechanical sense. If an alternative reality Finland became fully independent earlier she might or might not (probably not) get an access to the artic ocean. Now she will alway get it, provided she gets the Lapland province.

Cheers, H.

 

[unmerged(17780)]

Blah!

I'm a Finn and I don't give a s***! Let's just enjoy the game when it comes out. Issues like this are not that important IMO when we can expect the game itself to be a great one.