Border changes, drawing borders and liberating colonies

[Decolonization]

Many diplomatic tools and tweeks have been implemented in Eu4 for border changes in the late DLCs, such as feeding land to puppets, giving land to allies and puppets during wars. Tranfering claims to puppets, etc. I think these diplomatic tools should be used as well in HOI4

HOI 4 should allow the player to draw up new borders during peace talks either by province or in a similar war to how battle plans are made with lines and such.

Also, it would be good to allow the player to give land to his allies or puppets as he wishes in peace time as well as during peace conference after a war. For example, Japan could conquer Siberia through Manchuko, feeding the land to it, in a similar way as it could be done in Eu4.

It would also be great if we could during peace talks, decide which land should be annexed and the remainder could become a puppet state or be made up like the Client state mechanic in Eu4.

Finally, I truly hope that it will be possible to liberate colonies, and draw up their borders in such a manner. Playing as the released or liberated colonies would also be interesting!

Share your thoughts on the matter!

 

[LordOfWar16]

States are the smallest part that can change owner. Provinces are only there for troop movement and fortifications. You can actually give and ask for controll over enemy territory as seen in the World War Wednesday Multiplayer Series, where we saw "ask for controll over state" and "give controll over state" in the diplomacy screen with italy.

I really hope that we will get the client state mechanic from EUIV aswell. It would help germany greatly to create several clientstates in the eastern regions when they push the soviets back behind the urals for example. That could be one way of lowering local unrest and maybe even world tension a bit, not by much tho. Same could be applied for the soviet union when they conquer eastern germany by making them an clientstate rather than putting them under direct controll.

With that said, i am sure that they will put in similar mechanics like in EUIV if they fit and work well.

 

[Decolonization]

States are the smallest part that can change owner. Provinces are only there for troop movement and fortifications. You can actually give and ask for controll over enemy territory as seen in the World War Wednesday Multiplayer Series, where we saw "ask for controll over state" and "give controll over state" in the diplomacy screen with italy.

I really hope that we will get the client state mechanic from EUIV aswell. It would help germany greatly to create several clientstates in the eastern regions when they push the soviets back behind the urals for example. That could be one way of lowering local unrest and maybe even world tension a bit, not by much tho. Same could be applied for the soviet union when they conquer eastern germany by making them an clientstate rather than putting them under direct controll.

With that said, i am sure that they will put in similar mechanics like in EUIV if they fit and work well.

But we also saw previously that it was possible to claim regions like when Italy could claim ''Eastern Switzerland'' if I remember well...

 

[mdw1985]

But we also saw previously that it was possible to claim regions like when Italy could claim ''Eastern Switzerland'' if I remember well...

States are smaller than countries in the game. For germany they seem to be a mix of government districts (niederbayern, oberbayern), federal states (hessen) and something inbetween (franken) compared to today's map...

Edit: to clearify, countries in hoi4 consust of states...

 

[LordOfWar16]

But we also saw previously that it was possible to claim regions like when Italy could claim ''Eastern Switzerland'' if I remember well...

Switzerland consists of 2 states, eastern switzerland and switzerland. As mdw1985 said states, not(!) countries, are different to the whole state aka the country and strategic cities count as their own states aswell and can be taken individually as seen in the screenshots below.

The outlined areas are states and as you can see in this example, germany took the important cities in poland within those states even if bulgaria or lithuania controll those states.

In this screenshot you can see the states much better. (note that they already fixed the screw up with ober- and niederbayern). In this screenshot you can also see the individual provinces which, as i said, are only really used for troop movement and fortification placement. Everything else like industrial buildup is conducted on the state level.

 

[Jestem]

Switzerland consists of 2 states, eastern switzerland and switzerland. As mdw1985 said states, not(!) countries, are smaller than todays states and strategic cities count as their own states aswell and can be taken individually as seen in the screenshots below.

The outlined areas are states and as you can see in this example, germany took the important cities in poland within those states even if bulgaria or lithuania controll those states.

In this screenshot you can see the states much better. (note that they already fixed the screw up with ober- and niederbayern). In this screenshot you can also see the individual provinces which, as i said, are only really used for troop movement and fortification placement. Everything else like industrial buildup is conducted on an state level.

I understand that states are important and Italy should annex eastern switzerland to use its factories etc. but for example I wanna make a national goal about italian-spoken provinces.

In peace talks, will I be able to draw a line that includes these provinces I want to annex? I better be. I don't want whole eastern switzerland. I just want to create new state from these provinces. Italy that annexed Eastern Switzerland looks.. just.. weird. Mussolini and Hitler would not share Swiss state just like these borders...

 

[LordOfWar16]

In peace talks, will I be able to draw a line that includes these provinces I want to annex? I better be. I don't want whole eastern switzerland. I just want to create new state from these provinces. Italy that annexed Eastern Switzerland looks.. just.. weird. Mussolini and Hitler would not share Swiss state just like these borders...

You get claims on states either by national focuses or by fabricating them, similar how EUIV does it. Those allow you to take states cheaper in the peace conference, while they are much more expensive for the other nations to claim, but they could. You cant annex individual provinces, no. Only states can change owner.

One thing you could probably do, however, is modding the regions. In HoI 3 all you needed for that were the province id´s and simply putting them into the regions.txt file to create an new region. I dont know if or how exactly that would work with HoI IV, since population plays an important role when it comes to numbers of availabel factories, but i guess it would simply split the number of slots accordingly. You could maybe split eastern switzerland into 2 regions at the river and that way create an southern region.

Or of course you will be an good italy and leave switzerland alone and dont run into that issue.

 

[AlfredMV]

I understand that states are important and Italy should annex eastern switzerland to use its factories etc. but for example I wanna make a national goal about italian-spoken provinces.

In peace talks, will I be able to draw a line that includes these provinces I want to annex? I better be. I don't want whole eastern switzerland. I just want to create new state from these provinces. Italy that annexed Eastern Switzerland looks.. just.. weird. Mussolini and Hitler would not share Swiss state just like these borders...

You take eastern Switzerland and you like it.

 

[Decolonization]

I understand that states are important and Italy should annex eastern switzerland to use its factories etc. but for example I wanna make a national goal about italian-spoken provinces.

In peace talks, will I be able to draw a line that includes these provinces I want to annex? I better be. I don't want whole eastern switzerland. I just want to create new state from these provinces. Italy that annexed Eastern Switzerland looks.. just.. weird. Mussolini and Hitler would not share Swiss state just like these borders...

Like he says, devs should really try to make states smaller and more respectful of ethnic and linguistic differences. The states of Western and Eastern Switzerland really don't make much sense. I would also like if I was Italy to be able to take the italian regions of Switzerland without having to take all of Switzerland...

 

[rafan]

If you look at Polish borders and DD about peace confereces, you will see that Gdańsk and Gdynia are in single state again, and German states are made so you cant recreate after war borders and if you try you will get really ugly one.
I trully dont know why they do it like this i this case.

 

[Shatterfury]

If you look at Polish borders and DD about peace confereces, you will see that Gdańsk and Gdynia are in single state again, and German states are made so you cant recreate after war borders and if you try you will get really ugly one.
I trully dont know why they do it like this i this case.

The Korridor....wundabar !!!

 

[MajorHeartfire]

To the Italy question, no you will not be able to get those exact borders through game mechanics. But, you can mod it in through the files. And it will be fairly easy to do so (you would just switch two strings to ITA from SWZ assuming they keep the same naming conventions).

 

[Anichent]

States are the smallest part that can change owner. Provinces are only there for troop movement and fortifications

This would be great if it was done right....except it isn't based on what we've been shown.
Paradox puts so much effort into researching generals and politicians and other minutia of historical accuracy, and then they drop the ball with lazy state borders.
Perfect example: Switzerland. Based on logic and German plans, Switzerland SHOULD be 3 states: Arpitan Switzerland, Italian Switzerland, and German Switzerland. Slovenia should be the same since it was divided 3 ways between Hungary, Germany, and Italy. Yes they would be small but that is necessary when you want to make states the smallest unit transferable and when you build a history simulating game.
Instead? Switzerland is 2 provinces, divided down the middle arbitrarily like in Victoria 2. Why? Pure laziness. And that laziness is repeated around the world map with a lot of states making no sense at all and just making a mess, as well as making reasonable and plausible conquest plans unworkable.

Its very upsetting to wait this long for a game and then have to waste so much time to mod (read fix) such a basic thing like state borders to make the map what it should have been in the first place.

 

[Decolonization]

I just hope some devs are going to read this...

 

[LordOfWar16]

This would be great if it was done right....except it isn't based on what we've been shown.
Paradox puts so much effort into researching generals and politicians and other minutia of historical accuracy, and then they drop the ball with lazy state borders.
Perfect example: Switzerland. Based on logic and German plans, Switzerland SHOULD be 3 states: Arpitan Switzerland, Italian Switzerland, and German Switzerland. Slovenia should be the same since it was divided 3 ways between Hungary, Germany, and Italy. Yes they would be small but that is necessary when you want to make states the smallest unit transferable and when you build a history simulating game.
Instead? Switzerland is 2 provinces, divided down the middle arbitrarily like in Victoria 2. Why? Pure laziness. And that laziness is repeated around the world map with a lot of states making no sense at all and just making a mess, as well as making reasonable and plausible conquest plans unworkable.

Its very upsetting to wait this long for a game and then have to waste so much time to mod (read fix) such a basic thing like state borders to make the map what it should have been in the first place.

We should point out that the game is in the beta phase at the moment and things can still change. They surely wont change big mechanics around anymore for sure, but adjusting state borders etc with tester feedback is nothing that should be too hard. Other than that i never claimed it would be perfect how it is right now. I totaly agreed (in my post above) that switzerland should consist of alteast 3 states, to make splitting stuff easier for the axis. Splitting eastern switzerland in an northern and southern part would work, since then if france for example joins the axis they could easiely split it 3 ways. Western part french, northern part german and southern part italian.

We really shouldnt get upset about something that probably will change prior to launch. In the worst case we have to mod it, but atleast paradox gives us the freedom to do so and it shouldnt be too hard either. The hardest part is to find the province id's with which HoI3PosEdit actually helps alot and saves quiet alot of time in HoI III.

 

[Anichent]

I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said LordOfWar16, I just wanted to quote your words to start my post.

I'm hopeful but I doubt it. If there is one consistent problem with every paradox game ever its always borders. Which is why mods that fix borders are always the most popular.
Not sure why since Paradox fans probably care more about borders than any other gamers out there. Its a serious case of misunderstanding your audience.

Based on the images posted above I can already see a few "states" that need to be changed/added:
Arpitan Switzerland (Bright Green)
German Switzerland (Orange)
"Italian" Switzerland (Red) -- based mostly on what Germany would have given Italy if they invaded Switzerland according to known plans (they actually would have given all of the Waldensian lands, but half looks better. Really East Waldensia could go to any of the 3 Swiss states)
Silesian Poland (Dark Blue)
Istria (Green) -- for practicality reasons (Croatian ambitions/state)
Nice (Light Blue) -- because it makes as much sense as Danzig being a province especially for Italiam ambitions.
Arpitania (yellow) -- might even be worth dividing it into Savoy and something else for obvious possible Italian irredentist ambitions.

Thats on top of the fact that the provinces and states of Bosnia, Croatia, Veneto, and Dalmatia are just too messy to fix (although the NE province of Dalmatia ought to be in Croatia), and not including Slovenia changes since its too hard to see. The messy (read lazy) province shapes will make some state border corrections more complicated.
I also considered Czech Silesia but its pretty close to what is called "Eastern Sudetenland" so there's no need based on he current province shapes.

If anyone wants to work together to fix states when the game is out, count me in. Making it a big joint project that is widely used will help with keeping MP playable, rather than everyone modding their own states on their own or too many state changing mods. And fixing/modding states is going to be day one of my HOI4 plans I'm sure.

 

[LordOfWar16]

@Anichent Some states they actually left out for gameplay reasons. The USA for example doesnt consist of 51 states, but some of the less important ones gameplay wise got merged (see the USA Dev Diary). It actually makes sense to merge some states for gameplay reasons, since too many could conflict with some game mechanics and might not justify the gain. They might add flavor, but make other things more complicated.

In the World War Wednessday Stream we already saw how much clicking Johan required to queue his factories in all his states (including colonies). Now imagine doing so in 51 states or even more.

In the case of some countries they kinda went with an too minimalistic approach, like switzerland of course, which makes it a bit hard if not impossible to create somewhat decent looking peacedeals, of course. Nobody wants that ugly border CB on them.

 

[Anichent]

@Anichent Some states they actually left out for gameplay reasons. The USA for example doesnt consist of 51 states, but some of the less important ones gameplay wise got merged. Another example for that would be Austria aswell. Ingame they consit of 3 states, when in reality it consists of 9 states. It actually makes sense to merge some states for gameplay reasons, since too many could conflict with some game mechanics and might not justify the gain.

In the case of some countries they kinda went with an too minimalistic approach, like switzerland of course, which makes it a bit hard if not impossible to create somewhat decent looking peacedeals, of course. Nobody wants that ugly border CB on them.

My criticisms have nothing to do with "real" states, they have to do with gameplay. As in very reasonable things people who play this game are going to want to do, and that should be possible to do. Of course we shouldn't ask them to match all real states, I would never ask that . Thats why I wouldn't suggest separating Piemonte and Liguria.

My suggestions are purely to improve gameplay.
ie. An italian player should be able to take just Nice just as a German player can take Danzig.
A croatian player should be able to take just Istria
A german player should be able to take just german switzerland
A Czech player should be able to take Silesian Poland (and Silesian Germany too but thats already possible it seems)
Etc.

You are very right when you say they are being too minimalistic. If states are the smallest transferable unit, they need to make sure there are enough to make the map give some plausible results and it seems they haven't. Adding some and changing some is easily doable - but if they leave it to us and it requires re-balancing too many other aspects thats just not fair to paying customers to have to fix.

In the end Paradox must keep in mind that when creating a history simulating game, it must be capable of simulating history (ie. Slovenia divisions that did happen), and they must also keep in mind that when making ahistorical plausible outcomes a part of the game those must also be made possible (ie. Nice or Swiss divisions that were planned to happen if Germany won).

 

[FOARP]

I just want to be able to liberate puppets with at least the same freedom as in HOI2. Making you wait until you've annexed the territory to do so, rather than allowing you to release puppet-states on occupied territory as e.g. Japan did during the war, is simply illogical and ahistorical.

Some people argue against this saying that it can be over-powered, with puppet states capable of raising large numbers of troops, but this is simply a case of balancing the feature properly.

 

[CocoBZ]

The biggest of problems is cutting the possibility of transferring individual provinces, when nobody asked for it. It's another case of fixing what isn't wrong.

We really shouldnt get upset about something that probably will change prior to launch.

And then, when it doesn't change, we're greeted with "now it's too late to do anything about it", or even worse, "buy the DLC".