boo sapmi, boo! boo inconsistency, boo!!

[Wizzington]

Touche, no reason to get too worked up by the names in a video game either, it's a rather trivial thing. But there's a wider movement (as clearly seen by the comments here) to deliberately butcher the English language and force non-English terms on English speakers. I'm glad so many people have a desire to learn this great language of Chaucer and Shakespeare and I understand that languages evolve; I don't think we need to go to the same lengths the French go to in order to protect the integrity of their language. But trying to argue that traditional English terms are inappropriate or even wrong is simply a bridge too far. I would never presume to tell the French which French terms are correct or appropriate or insist English terms should be used in lieu of French terms, I respect that such determinations are their prerogative; I simply think the same courtesy should be extended to us English-speakers and, indeed, to all peoples with respect to their own native language.

Truly, this wider movement to butcher the English language is the new cultural genocide of our age. You should bring the UN in on this.

 

[physics1915]

Since the Swedish state and Church actively tried to destroy the Sami culture and engaged in an eugenic project against the Sami people, the word Lapp, which almost exclusively was used derogatory during the 19th and 20th century has a bad taste to it, much similar to the N-word in an American context. When used these days it is mostly used to hurt, or in some cases due to ignorance.

But that's in Swedish, not English. In English the term 'negro' is likewise regarded as pejorative, for very similar reasons, and probably would not be appropriate for use in a game like this; but in Spanish it has no such connotations, in Latin America it's even a term of endearment. Nobody would suggest that they should stop using the term 'negro' in Spanish because of the connotations it has in English; so why should we stop using Lapland(er) in English just because it has negative connotations in Swedish?

 

[Sun_Wu]

As far as I remember You guys consider naming in-game concept "kebab" to be racist. The problem with political corectness is that it goes to such absurd range.

Turkish players were getting harassed and it is rather rude to denigrate other people and countries for your own amusement.

 

[physics1915]

Truly, this wider movement to butcher the English language is the new cultural genocide of our age. You should bring the UN in on this.

Oh, I'm sure we'll survive, the continental powers of Europe have been trying to subjugate us for the last millennium, with scant success since the Conquest. It's simply a matter of courtesy, but there are no laws that require one to be courteous if they would rather not be.

 

[IIWW]

Turkish players were getting harassed and it is rather rude to denigrate other people and countries for your own amusement.

Killing them is even worse, but I'm pretty sure You (and everyone here) killed millions of in-game soldiers. So it is ok to kill them, but not to denigrate them? Weird logic, if You ask me.
Both killing and insulting is only about in-game concepts. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Wizzington]

I never take complaints about political correctness seriously. People who make such complaints are generally so hilariously oversensitive that if they themselves experienced discrimination they would make the most absurd caricature of a social justice warrior look downright sensible.

 

[IIWW]

I never take complaints about political correctness seriously. People who make such complaints are generally so hilariously oversensitive that if they themselves experienced discrimination they would make the most absurd caricature of a social justice warrior look downright sensible.

It's just about freedom of speach. PC is a threat to it. Not per se, but it can very easily go to far.

 

[net.split]

"The problem with political correctness is that it doesn't let me be a soft racist"

 

[Wizzington]

It's just about freedom of speach. PC is a threat to it. Not per se, but it can very easily go to far.

If by 'not per se' you mean 'not in any way, shape or form'.

 

[IIWW]

If by 'not per se' you mean 'not in any way, shape or form'.

I mean it is a threat, not a violation.

"The problem with political correctness is that it doesn't let me be a soft racist"

No, the problem is that it calls racist people who aren't racist.

 

[net.split]

No, the problem is that it calls racist people who aren't racist.

Oppressed groups / minorities / etc are the ones that get to decide what is racist / sexist / generally offensive & oppressive towards them. Not the oppressing groups.

Dismissing those complaints as "political correctness" and "whining" and whatever else is a tactic utilized specifically to continue engaging in oppressive activity toward those groups.

 

[Rabid]

I think it's a bit unfair to us English speakers to be berated for wanting the game to use what is unquestionably the most well known name for the region in our language, however since it is apparently extremely derogatory in its original usage in the Scandinavian languages it seems a reasonable acquiescence towards common decency to not use it and arguing in its favour regardless seems needlessly dedicated to being offensive, much like if V2 referred to Muslims as "Mohammedeans" which would certainly be period-appropriate.

I would argue that far more English native speakers are aware of the term Sami than the regional term Sapmi and that either naming the state directly after its people or something along the lines of Samiland reads better in English and is more obviously a country / region name, but I'm not going to be particularly bothered if Sapmi is used.

 

[IIWW]

Oppressed groups / minorities / etc are the ones that get to decide what is racist / sexist / generally offensive & oppressive towards them. Not the oppressing groups.

Dismissing those complaints as "political correctness" and "whining" and whatever else is a tactic utilized specifically to continue engaging in oppressive activity toward those groups.

If I'm talking about them, ok. I don't support any kind of ad persona insults/arguments. I just don't really see the difference between calling someone a "n***er" or "son of a b**ch". If it's not racist (just extremly uncultured) to call smn the latter, then it's not the first. Racism is hating/insulting smn beacuse of his race. If I hate smn for different reasons, then calling him a n***er is just the same as any other insult.

 

[physics1915]

It's just about freedom of speach. PC is a threat to it. Not per se, but it can very easily go to far.

Yes, when it gets to the point that the use of the wrong term has real world political or economic consequences, it does pose a threat to our traditional liberties. Though I wouldn't elevate the issue at hand to that level; it's more that it seems quite presumptuous to come in and tell us that a term we've been using for half a millennium is wrong/inappropriate because of events over the last century that we had nothing to do with and are little known amongst the English-speaking peoples.

There's a clear double standard in these matters, we are (rightly) called on to respect other cultures but there is no expectation that ours are likewise respected; I don't know how many times I've heard people not merely say, but argue that Americans have no culture, try to assert that with respect to any other culture on earth and you're likely to be shouted down as a bigot. But I sleep well in the knowledge that the US Navy has undisputed dominion over the world's seas, we have been prudent in not placing ourselves in a situation where we have to rely on the good will of foreign peoples for our security; whether they love us or hate us is of little consequence. Still, it is good that this hypocrisy is brought to light and revealed for what it truly is, which has really all I've been trying to get across in this thread.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

If I'm talking about them, ok. I don't support any kind of ad persona insults/arguments. I just don't really see the difference between calling someone a "n***er" or "son of a b**ch". If it's not racist (just extremly uncultured) to call smn the latter, then it's not the first. Racism is hating/insulting smn beacuse of his race. If I hate smn for different reasons, then calling him a n***er is just the same as any other insult.

Calling someone a nigger for any other reason still implies that being black is such a horrendous and horrible thing that it deserves to be an insult. It doesn't stop being racist.

 

[Attalus]

But in the end Wiz, will Sapmi be subject to a change of name ?

 

[IIWW]

Calling someone a nigger for any other reason still implies that being black is such a horrendous and horrible thing that it deserves to be an insult. It doesn't stop being racist.

Thats an extreme overinterpetation. God, I wish I knew english a bit better, but surely there are a lot of pairs like "nigger-black", which mean the same, but one is pejorative, while the other is not.
But racism is literally "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonismdirected against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior". Without this belief it's simply not racism.

 

[Wizzington]

But in the end Wiz, will Sapmi be subject to a change of name ?

No.

 

[yerm]

Thats an extreme overinterpetation. God, I wish I knew english a bit better, but surely there are a lot of pairs like "nigger-black", which mean the same, but one is pejorative, while the other is not.
But racism is literally "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonismdirected against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior". Without this belief it's simply not racism.

You're simply wrong here. If the word nigger is specifically and unquestionably associated with a specific race (which it is) and is used in such a way that being associated with the term is negative, it is clearly then an insult to that associated race. By your own definition, it is implying a negativity to the race in question, which should meet the criteria for racial superiority over it. Calling someone a faggot is offensive to homosexuals, and considered homophobic. Calling someone a girl as an insult is sexist. Terms like retard and gay are losing quite the popularity as acceptable insults because of these associations.

Lappland being innocuous and inoffensive here in the states is well and good, but it doesn't change that it's become offensive elsewhere and a substitute is appropriate. There's simply no need to use it. Words change; a civil war game shouldn't use period terms for certain aspects. HOI4 shouldn't use certain terms when playing Germany. This is common sense. Using an offensive term when a suitable inoffensive one is available is not common sense; it's just being stubborn. If they had used lapp without realizing, I don't think anyone would have raged, but since they know better... there's no reason to use it.

 

[IIWW]

You're simply wrong here. If the word nigger is specifically and unquestionably associated with a specific race (which it is) and is used in such a way that being associated with the term is negative, it is clearly then an insult to that associated race. By your own definition, it is implying a negativity to the race in question, which should meet the criteria for racial superiority over it. Calling someone a faggot is offensive to homosexuals, and considered homophobic. Calling someone a girl as an insult is sexist. Terms like retard and gay are losing quite the popularity as acceptable insults because of these associations.

Wow. Thats precisely what I meant by threat to freedom of speach. I can't call smn a girl, cause it proves in some weird way that girls are worse than men. I can't call someone a faggot, cause that proves I'm homophobic. Overzeal is worse than nazism.