boo sapmi, boo! boo inconsistency, boo!!

[TeutonicDane23]

You know that also "Lapland" was once a term you got from the scandinavians too, so it can't be the term that is taken the most care to make for the englishmen. So basicly it is a swedish, finnish or norwegian term, because it wasn't that important for them, just that they got understood the few times they used it.

You really think Lappland is a Finnish term? You do know the Finnish name for Finland is Suomi? Sounds extremely different than what the Germanic Scandinavians call Finland. Just seems weird because Finns speak a completely different language (than Scandinavians), which is not in the Indo-European language family, let alone not Germanic. So why would Finns have a "native" term like Lappland? Did the Finns borrow the word (and the term "land" for that matter) from the Scandinavians?

PS English was my first learned language, and I use Lappland to describe the area and refer to the people as Lapps or Sami and I did not know that it was derogatory. But I have never even heard of the term Sapmi until this thread as well. In all the English translated Sagas as well, the area is always called Lappland and the people Lapps.

Also, did the Finns even have a special name to describe Lapps/Sami? Or did they look at themselves as "one in the same"? Like how the Norse (Swedes, Danes, Norwegians) viewed eachother. I am just curious because I know historically they lived very similar lifestyles (reindeer herding and hunter-gatherers) and are connected culturally/linguistically/ethnically, but I have no idea what it's like in modern times.

 

[Clownie]

And those country name are proper nouns, not just words, so that mean you should try to call them what they call themselves in the same way you wouldn't call a person named Joseph José just because you spoke spanish to him.

Honestly, for a lot of languages and names, it's just more practical to swap to the local version of the name, as using foreign versions (to the language you're speaking) interrupts the entire flow of the language.

For instance, my name's Henrik, and I speak pretty decent German. Now, obviously I can pronounce my own name, but doing so in German sounds weird as hell, so I just introduce myself as Heinrich. It's easier for Germans to say too, since they can't roll their Rs.

You really think Lappland is a Finnish term? You do know the Finnish name for Finland is Suomi? Sounds extremely different than what the Germanic Scandinavians call Finland. Just seems weird because Finns speak a completely different language (than Scandinavians), which is not in the Indo-European language family, let alone not Germanic. So why would Finns have a "native" term like Lappland? Did the Finns borrow the word (and the term "land" for that matter) from the Scandinavians?

I think the original meaning that was being communicated was that the term 'Lapp' is of ultimately Finnish origin, and was appropriated into Norse, which then appended -land as the Norsemen did.

 

[Oriflamme]

Perhaps there should be an option for localized names or all-English names. That way, the people who get offended over pointless things can have their way and not force their beliefs on others.

 

[Blindbohemian]

Perhaps that may be the case, I didn't even now there was a controversy over the name Lapland until I encountered this thread. I just get tired of everyone trying to insist we change words in our language because they're different in some foreign language. Ceylon is now Sir Lanka, Burma is Myanmar, Rhodesia is Zimbabwe, Calcutta is Kolkata, Rangoon is Yangon, etc. now we have Sapmi instead of Lapland, the worst one yet (though Myanmar is pretty bad); I guess we can thank a racial slur for not having to call Japan 'Nippon'. In every case they we're taking a perfectly good and easy to pronounce English name and turning into some unpronounceable foreign name. If people want to use these names in their own language, that's perfectly reasonable, but don't turn around and pretend they should be proper English, they're not.

Because they're different in "some foreign language". Do you mean, they're different in their own language? I imagine you'd cheerfully correct a Japanese tourist referring to 'Rundin' - "Oh no mate, that's how foreigners say it. This is London. Get it freaking right."

The attitude that everything in the world should bow to having an English name - because you know, all those foreign places, why should they be allowed to have foreign names - is just stupid.

Bigotry like this makes me sick.

Do you even comprehend that Yangon etc is the original name of the place in question? They're not saying 'No, Rangoon is not proper English.' they're saying 'No, Rangoon is not what this place is called, you poncy English moron.'

 

[ahyangyi]

Perhaps that may be the case, I didn't even now there was a controversy over the name Lapland until I encountered this thread. I just get tired of everyone trying to insist we change words in our language because they're different in some foreign language. Ceylon is now Sir Lanka, Burma is Myanmar, Rhodesia is Zimbabwe, Calcutta is Kolkata, Rangoon is Yangon, etc. now we have Sapmi instead of Lapland, the worst one yet (though Myanmar is pretty bad); I guess we can thank a racial slur for not having to call Japan 'Nippon'. In every case they we're taking a perfectly good and easy to pronounce English name and turning into some unpronounceable foreign name. If people want to use these names in their own language, that's perfectly reasonable, but don't turn around and pretend they should be proper English, they're not.

"Japan" and "Nippon" are from the same (Chinese) roots - ja/ni (the sun) and pan/pon (origin, base). If you are discussing "Sapmi" vs "Saami" or "Sami" this example would be more appropriate

 

[ahyangyi]

Perhaps there should be an option for localized names or all-English names. That way, the people who get offended over pointless things can have their way and not force their beliefs on others.

"Ming" is a localized name though. Its northern part was called "Cathay" while its southern part was called "Manzi" in English. They were not known to be one country in the western world in 1444

 

[Wizzington]

We also have a proper English term for 'political correctness problem': whining.

You're calling awareness of racism and eugenics 'whining' while in a thread complaining about the name of an alt-history nation in a computer game

Do you even realize how ironic that is?

 

[myrsl0ken]

 

[Kung Zog]

Lapland is unacceptable because Lapp is considered a racist term and Sweden was engaging in eugenics against Saami into the 1970s which is recent memory.

Agreed. Sapmi is a much better choice.

You're calling awareness of racism and eugenics 'whining' while in a thread complaining about the name of an alt-history nation in a computer game

Do you even realize how ironic that is?

*APPLAUDS*

 

[Opera]

I can't imagine how you "can't pronounce these strange names" guys deal with Gazikumukh, Mzab, Tafilalt, Tlemcen and the more exotic province names. It's amazing to expect every little thing to conform to one language when the game is about the whole world. It's also amazing how inept a lot of English speakers are at pronouncing foreign words. Just do a bit of effort, it's not that hard, even if you have to wing it.

Not to presume but I wonder if it might be related to how people learn to read. As far as French is concerned, I know there's at least two methods that have been used: either teach children what sounds letters make when combined (b + a = ba) or teach them how to read words wholesale. The former might make it easier to decrypt foreign words.

(I don't know enough about the subject though)

 

[Palfouri]

I can't imagine how you "can't pronounce these strange names" guys deal with Gazikumukh, Mzab, Tafilalt, Tlemcen and the more exotic province names. It's amazing to expect every little thing to conform to one language when the game is about the whole world. It's also amazing how inept a lot of English speakers are at pronouncing foreign words. Just do a bit of effort, it's not that hard, even if you have to wing it.

I don't think it's a matter of pronouncing native words so much as using existing exonyms for places. I'm sure the French could pronounce "United Kingdom" or "England" with "a bit of effort", but that isn't exactly going to stop them from using Royaume-Uni or Angleterre to refer to that polity. Are the French "bigots", as Blindbohemian claims, for not changing their language to respect the native endonyms of the UK and places in it?

If you're going to demand that the English translation of EUIV respect native placenames when it comes to places like Rangoon or Lappland, then why is Kyiv still Kiev? Why is Bohemia not Cechy? I definitely agree with the original point in the title of the thread, in that if you're going to enforce native placenames in one region of the world there's no excuse aside from laziness not to do it everywhere. M&T at least does a good job on that end, and the mod is better for it.

 

[Lord Hugo]

You really think Lappland is a Finnish term? You do know the Finnish name for Finland is Suomi? Sounds extremely different than what the Germanic Scandinavians call Finland. Just seems weird because Finns speak a completely different language (than Scandinavians), which is not in the Indo-European language family, let alone not Germanic. So why would Finns have a "native" term like Lappland? Did the Finns borrow the word (and the term "land" for that matter) from the Scandinavians?

The Finnish word for Lapland is Lappi and the traditionally used word for a Sami is lappalainen, which is today considered somewhat offensive and the word saamelainen is preferred instead. The name Lappi might be derived from a Finnish word lape, which means edge. In this case, edge of land, periphery. However, it is apparently unclear how exactly this could have happened naturally, so Lappi propably is a Scandinavian loan, at least according to Wikipedia and from what I can remember having read elsewhere.

 

[perhje]

You really think Lappland is a Finnish term? You do know the Finnish name for Finland is Suomi? Sounds extremely different than what the Germanic Scandinavians call Finland. Just seems weird because Finns speak a completely different language (than Scandinavians), which is not in the Indo-European language family, let alone not Germanic. So why would Finns have a "native" term like Lappland? Did the Finns borrow the word (and the term "land" for that matter) from the Scandinavians?

PS English was my first learned language, and I use Lappland to describe the area and refer to the people as Lapps or Sami and I did not know that it was derogatory. But I have never even heard of the term Sapmi until this thread as well. In all the English translated Sagas as well, the area is always called Lappland and the people Lapps.

Also, did the Finns even have a special name to describe Lapps/Sami? Or did they look at themselves as "one in the same"? Like how the Norse (Swedes, Danes, Norwegians) viewed eachother. I am just curious because I know historically they lived very similar lifestyles (reindeer herding and hunter-gatherers) and are connected culturally/linguistically/ethnically, but I have no idea what it's like in modern times.

Yes, I know the finnins term for Finland is Suomi. You are right about they are not Indo-European in language, but still the finnish used something similar to the norwegian "lapper" and swedish "lappar". They used "lappalaiset", a similar word, but with a finnish twist, and the term land wasn't used.

Okey, I can say I was wrong about how well known the term Sapmi is in the englishspeaking world.

Why is it still used in the sagas? I suppose because the original writings use the terms "lapps(land)" and if you change that you will change how the meanings etc of the original writings. So if you have the knowlegde of the negative use of the term lapp trough the history you will know better how the writer and the first readers saw the text. If sami is used instead it will historically be more inaccurate.

Yes, before the finninsh was subjugated by Sweden I beleive they did live like each other, but the Sweden integrated them somewhat in their culture. I don't know how, but I will suppose the history repeated itself here too.

 

[thErgonomic]

Lapland is unacceptable because Lapp is considered a racist term and Sweden was engaging in eugenics against Saami into the 1970s which is recent memory.

Wait Lapp is considered racist? I what language and context? Because Finland has 'bout 30 percent of it's area named Lappi and everybody living there is called lappalainen. And the extensions of this area in Sweden, Norway and Russia are called (adjective) Lappi.

 

[TheDungen]

Yes, it's very recent, but so is Iran. Lapland, or Laponia, were, and still are, the more common names. Sapmi is recent, and thus doesn't fit the timeframe as well, and not even as widely used today. No, it's not offensive, and especially not in english. There's still a province called Lappland in Swedish for heaven's sake, so let's not pretend this is a loaded word.

Sampi is only recent in english the sami people have always been calling their land that. And it's a sapmi revolter tag. The only recent thing is that it's been included in languages like swedish and english. So if they were to declare their independence they wouldn't call their country lappland. That name is far to linked woth their oppressed state. They would call it sapmi. What would an english speaker during those times call it. Probably some anglification of sapmi becuase honestly no one had heard of lappland either.

 

[TheDungen]

I would've said Lappland, too, just for consistency sake, and because that's the term I'm familiar with. However, I wasn't aware it was considered derogatory.

If the group of people who it would represent find the term offensive, no matter how mildly, no, don't use it. Why would we knowingly impose a slur on their nation at the very time we're making it (theoretically) possible for them to exist in the game? That's not some knee-jerk political correctness, that's just common courtesy.

I presume the folk at Paradox are somewhat aware, though. That would explain why they are using the far less familiar term. Props to them.

I'm mildly curious, though, WHY it's deemed offensive?

Well we kind of tried to eradicate their culture will into the 20th century.

 

[TheDungen]

Perhaps that may be the case, I didn't even now there was a controversy over the name Lapland until I encountered this thread. I just get tired of everyone trying to insist we change words in our language because they're different in some foreign language. Ceylon is now Sir Lanka, Burma is Myanmar, Rhodesia is Zimbabwe, Calcutta is Kolkata, Rangoon is Yangon, etc. now we have Sapmi instead of Lapland, the worst one yet (though Myanmar is pretty bad); I guess we can thank a racial slur for not having to call Japan 'Nippon'. In every case they we're taking a perfectly good and easy to pronounce English name and turning into some unpronounceable foreign name. If people want to use these names in their own language, that's perfectly reasonable, but don't turn around and pretend they should be proper English, they're not.

So we shouldn't respect these people's right to name their own countries once they became free of the imperialist oprossors. We don't keep calling mexico new spain so why should we keep calling a hypothetical free majority sami cultured lappland lappland?

 

[ahyangyi]

By the way, terms can become offensive even if they have innocent-looking etymologies. The N-word literally mean the same thing as "black people", but the former is offensive and is not welcome, while the latter is generally fine.

Therefore, I doubt these discussions about etymology are necessary. It doesn't matter if "lapp" comes from Norse, Finnish or the Sami language itself. As long as the Sami people find it offensive, it is, and it should not appear in the game.

 

[TheDungen]

I don't think it's a matter of pronouncing native words so much as using existing exonyms for places. I'm sure the French could pronounce "United Kingdom" or "England" with "a bit of effort", but that isn't exactly going to stop them from using Royaume-Uni or Angleterre to refer to that polity. Are the French "bigots", as Blindbohemian claims, for not changing their language to respect the native endonyms of the UK and places in it?

If you're going to demand that the English translation of EUIV respect native placenames when it comes to places like Rangoon or Lappland, then why is Kyiv still Kiev? Why is Bohemia not Cechy? I definitely agree with the original point in the title of the thread, in that if you're going to enforce native placenames in one region of the world there's no excuse aside from laziness not to do it everywhere. M&T at least does a good job on that end, and the mod is better for it.

The bohemia one is fair, but it's basically on the same spot as lappland, it's part of the HRE thus we use the HRE name. As for those french names those are the englishnames translated to french, lappland and sapmi aren't. No one would mind if enhlish people called sapmi samiland. It's the lapp that is the problem.

 

[TheDungen]

By the way, terms can become offensive even if they have innocent-looking etymologies. The N-word literally mean the same thing as "black people", but the former is offensive and is not welcome, while the latter is generally fine.

Therefore, I doubt these discussions about etymology are necessary. It doesn't matter if "lapp" comes from Norse, Finnish or the Sami language itself. As long as the Sami people find it offensive, it is, and it should not appear in the game.

Rather more as long as it's not what they would call their nation it shouldn't be in the game. Lappland is in the game, as the swedish controled province of lapland.