boo sapmi, boo! boo inconsistency, boo!!

[Heinrikr]

Boo! For clarification, this is a boo of disapproval, not affection. Also, this is not an anti-sapmi thread. So, I was checking out Wiz's twitter and saw they made some new revolter tags. For that I say YAY, but when looking at their names -which were Estonia, Livonia, Karelia, and Sapmi- I noted that Sapmi.. Didn't... really fit. I'm sure you also can see that. Whereas the first three are english, latin derived names, Sapmi is an endonym. Why the inconsistency? Why not just call Sapmi Lappland, Lapland, or Laponia instead? And why don't you call Karelia Karjala instead? This is of course does not stop there... Why castile and not castilla, when you choose catalunya instead of catalonia? I like consistency, and if our two options are english names and native names, we should go with english names (for countries that is, nevermind provinces). Therefore, boo sapmi, and boo catalunya. boo

 

[Sobisonator]

I agree. It looks out of place when there are endonyms here and there among English names for countries. It wouldn't be hard to change this to look neat.

 

[Dr. B]

I would guess that since the territory inhabited by sami has rarely if ever been described as its own political entity, it has no fitting english name to use?

 

[Heinrikr]

I would guess that since the territory inhabited by sami has rarely if ever been described as its own political entity, it has no fitting english name to use?

It actually has, Lapland or Laponia. The name refers to the area inhabited by the lapp people, even though they weren't organised as a state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi

 

[Dr. B]

It actually has, Lapland or Laponia. The name refers to the area inhabited by the lapp people, even though they weren't organised as a state. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi

Yes, you are right, I didnt know that sami people are called lapps in english.

Now dont take this the wrong way, but should a Sapmi revolter state get western tech or is it more appropriate with native? They had a primarily hunter-gatherer economy as far as I know?

 

[myrsl0ken]

Actually, Sampi is established in the English language, even if it's quite recent. Lapp is also derogatory and I think it's nice that P-dox avoided such a loaded term.

 

[Heinrikr]

Yes, you are right, I didnt know that sami people are called lapps in english.

Now dont take this the wrong way, but should a Sapmi revolter state get western tech or is it more appropriate with native? They had a primarily hunter-gatherer economy as far as I know?

I don't know actually, you'd have to ask paradox that.

Actually, Sampi is established in the English language, even if it's quite recent. Lapp is also derogatory and I think it's nice that P-dox avoided such a loaded term.

Yes, it's very recent, but so is Iran. Lapland, or Laponia, were, and still are, the more common names. Sapmi is recent, and thus doesn't fit the timeframe as well, and not even as widely used today. No, it's not offensive, and especially not in english. There's still a province called Lappland in Swedish for heaven's sake, so let's not pretend this is a loaded word.

 

[Sobisonator]

I've never spoken to someone who identifies as Sapmi, but I've never encountered the word "Lapp" being offensive.

A Lappish revolter should probably get Eastern tech, as I imagine they'd be led by nobility familiar with modern government. Just like if a Western nation rebelled, you wouldn't give them farmer tech because that's what most people did.

 

[myrsl0ken]

You can stick your head in the sand all you want (as most Swedes seems to do when confronted with our history of oppression), but Lapp was, and still is, used derogatory. The Lappland province is necessary, since that's what the province was actually called. The question what a revolter state should be called is much less obvious, and when presented with a choice that's perhaps a bit ahistorical but definitely not racist, I'd stick with that.

EDIT: I'm from Västerbotten and I can tell you: the racism is still very much alive and Sami do find Lapp to be offensive.

 

[Draker5]

I just asked my girlfriend who's from northern Finland, and she said that the sapmi consider lapp to be somewhat offensive. But I don't know if that's the reason for naming the tag sapmi, it's not THAT offensive.
But yeah, I agree on incosistency being bad. I do love localization though. Karelia should be Karjala if its culture is Karelian, Finnish or Estonian.

 

[Heinrikr]

You can stick your head in the sand all you want (as most Swedes seems to do when confronted with our history of oppression), but Lapp was, and still is, used derogatory. The Lappland province is necessary, since that's what the province was actually called. The question what a revolter state should be called is much less obvious, and when presented with a choice that's perhaps a bit ahistorical but definitely not racist, I'd stick with that.

EDIT: I'm from Västerbotten and I can tell you: the racism is still very much alive and Sami do find Lapp to be offensive.

Being offended is an industry these days. Perhaps some people find it offensive, but why should anyone care? People find everything offensive these days, and we can't ge around changing everything because of it. As far as I am concerned, Lapland was called Lapland, and I want english names not endonyms, and therefore it's Lapland.

I just asked my girlfriend who's from northern Finland, and she said that the sapmi consider lapp to be somewhat offensive. But I don't know if that's the reason for naming the tag sapmi, it's not THAT offensive.
But yeah, I agree on incosistency being bad. I do love localization though. Karelia should be Karjala if its culture is Karelian, Finnish or Estonian.

but you mean province names now, right? I'm speaking of the names of countries. Countries should only be english names in my view, but provinces should be localised.

 

[myrsl0ken]

Well, there's the offendedness that comes from centuries of oppression and then there's the offendedness that comes from not being allowed to use racial slurs with impunity. I know which one I will side with.

 

[Searry]

You turned a good thread into a bad discussion about who's offended of what. I bet there are a lot of internet forums for that kind of thing, but this is the EUIV forum.

I agree with the OP. Find a different name for it. It's very illogical how Pdox chooses these names for the countries.

 

[AwesomeKeith]

Yes, OP is right. I vote English because I can't pronounce anything else.

 

[pikaemperor]

Under ideal circumstances all countries should have their names by their endonyms, that should stop part of the stupid nationalistic threads as most people gets pissed off by seeing their country name written wrong plus it adds flavor.

 

[aap5454]

To be honest I vastly prefer Sapmi, since while I know only 2 or 3 Sami people, they agree that it's a derogatory and somewhat offensive term. Now you can say you "don't care" about that, but how incredibly inconsiderate is that? it's like saying you're offended we can't call Africa "Great Niggerton" because it sounds more English to you and "boohoo I want everything to be English". I wouldn't ever feel good about creating a great "Lappish" empire, knowing none of my people would ever approve of that name. Why should we go for English names on everything?

 

[AwesomeKeith]

Under ideal circumstances all countries should have their names by their endonyms, that should stop part of the stupid nationalistic threads as most people gets pissed off by seeing their country name written wrong plus it adds flavor.

What about people like me who like to be able to pronounce the name of the country I'm playing as or invading?

 

[AwesomeKeith]

it's like saying you're offended we can't call Africa "Great Niggerton"

I do that already.

 

[Tom013]

To be honest I vastly prefer Sapmi, since while I know only 2 or 3 Sami people, they agree that it's a derogatory and somewhat offensive term. Now you can say you "don't care" about that, but how incredibly inconsiderate is that? it's like saying you're offended we can't call Africa "Great Niggerton" because it sounds more English to you and "boohoo I want everything to be English". I wouldn't ever feel good about creating a great "Lappish" empire, knowing none of my people would ever approve of that name. Why should we go for English names on everything?

I don't disagree with your whole point, but ... Generally speaking, we're talking about the English localization of the game (other localizations are available), so when there is a commonly accepted English name available, it's not unreasonable to use it. I certainly wouldn't favor España for the English localization, though I personally find it completely pronounceable and easy to comprehend.

That said, it seems equally unreasonable to pick names that the particular group finds offensive and even more so when a readable alternative already exists in Latin script. In the case of "Sapmi" in particular, I think the argument that some other name is more "English" and more accepted for a nation there is weak at best. This is in contrast to others like Castile, France, or Germany, which are acceptable in English, easy to pronounce, and acceptable to the people of the nations to which they refer.

 

[Dr. B]

It is a special case with countries that have never been an organised state, and doesnt really have more than their native name for the area where the people live. Sapmi would be best her, since Lapland can be fond offensive.

As a Norwegian though, I think "Samiland" sound ok, and it is easy to understand for everyone. This country would be an invented construct anyway, so it is ok to invent the name as well I think.