Boo @ Paradox's Modder Dependency

[unmerged(12885)]

I just finished playing about 5 years through my first 1.03 game.

I came away from the experience ... frustrated. I don't feel that it makes significant advancement past 1.02 to the player, and I believe that it is as far as playing it is concerned - a step back in many ways from 1.02c (bolts).

Now I am stuck in a very annoying situation, I am stuck waiting yet again for the next HoI step: Bolts eventual mod of 1.03. And that really pisses me off. I've had this game for what feels like years, and with the pretty sizable changes being made to the game weekly I have yet to really want to devote time to it.

It just seems to me like Paradox didn't think it nessecary to attempt to encorporate any of Bolts changes into 1.03. Most of the changes make for a considerably better game, and I think that is a strong mistake by Paradox.

Instead the correct action to take is:
At this point, help bolt finish 1.03a by helping to contribute people capable of porting events or AI files, and later to help in the time consuming testing process. Once completed 1.03a should be an OFFICIAL version, not a user mod.

The reason to make this Offical is (I imagine) there to be a very large number of people who purchased HoI but who do not read this forum, or check up on the community - maybe at most checking for a new patch once, or twice. These people are unlikely to download user mods, and will miss out on the experience -the way I believe even the developers would prefer the game be played-.

In other words, just like trips ai mods were encorporated into 1.03 (or ported to 1.03, or he specially modified 1.03 to take advantage of his manipulation of the AI, or however you want to phrase it), bolts events, many of the changes to the political map, starting forces, etc should be made official (where appropriate). This would additionally include any "Scenerio designed to challenge Axis players" or what have you. These should be packaged in the official release for the same reasons.

If Paradox has not compensated testers/contributers at this point I find that totally unacceptable. Even if its a trivial amount of money, an effort should be made in $ terms to show appreciation for the work they've done in the community, and the truth is without them making those changes - you would have lost many customers.

 

[Vulture]

You have the facts a little wrong my friend...

It just seems to me like Paradox didn't think it nessecary to attempt to encorporate any of Bolts changes into 1.03. Most of the changes make for a considerably better game, and I think that is a strong mistake by Paradox.

As you might now, Bolt has joined the Beta-crew. His changes will be looked into. But you can't expect a professional company to copy an entire mod to their game that fast. Bolt has joined beta-team only a few days prior to 1.03 release. Both he and Trip will continue to provide help.

Instead the correct action to take is:
At this point, help bolt finish 1.03a by helping to contribute people capable of porting events or AI files, and later to help in the time consuming testing process. Once completed 1.03a should be an OFFICIAL version, not a user mod.

I am sorry, you can't just take a mod and make it official just like that Every modder will ask for his mod to be made official because it 'has the more historical leaders', 'adds more historical unit names' and 'makes AI better'... Then we are in the paradise of Free Source Code... PARADOX is still making the game.

If Paradox has not compensated testers/contributers at this point I find that totally unacceptable. Even if its a trivial amount of money, an effort should be made in $ terms to show appreciation for the work they've done in the community, and the truth is without them making those changes - you would have lost many customers.

You surely must be joking about the payment? With all due respect to any modder out there, but there are a number of betazoids out there (among them is me) who spent FAR more time on the game, and are not paid. Case closed. Pointless point.

 

[unmerged(11117)]

Well ... a lot of people put in hard work on this game, but ...

without Bolt's mods I would have given up a long time ago. The game became interesting and playable because of the contribution that Bolt made (as well as the people who contributed to his mod).

Bolted HOI has saved this game, end of story.

 

[Marquoz]

Give Trip and Fed some credit too! Fed's 39 scenario for 1.02 was quite a challenge, especially the German only version, and Trip's AI files worked for any scenario.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Yeah and while you are doing don't forget to slag Paradox for trying to make the game in the first place, incorporating Bolt and Trip onto the beta team, exporting most of the AI variables to player mod files so that the game can be endlessly tweaked and working hard on the NEXT patch too.

Remember - Bolt, Trip et al are very good at modifying and compensating. Johan has to create the rules and the framework in the first place.

 

[unmerged(12007)]

True. I didn't have enough time to make a serious contribution to 1.03, because I delayed joining the beta team in a belief that it would serve the community better by remaining completely focussed on my mod. I believe that was a mistake on my part.

True. Many other people contributed to the beta far more than I did because of the lack of time I had before the 1.03 patch went out. Its also true that many many people contributed to my mod, and therefore it is not exclusively my work. Its also true that other members of the community, such as Trip, Fed, and others, are with their mods and edits adding just as much to the community, if not far more, than I am.

True. We would be nowhere without Johan and company. The vision of their creation was apparent to me early on, which was what finally motivated me to see if I could improve on it in any way.

I am greatly flattered by comments such as those by Frost. I think it would be unwise for me, or any modder, to take them quite as literally as vanity would suggest. Nevertheless, I will continue to work on my mod, and contribute what I can to the beta team so that in the end we are all quite happy with the result.

 

[unmerged(11258)]

Nice one Bolt

Bolt, I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your mod. Wonderful work. I thought the balance ( and sanity) your mod brought to the world market made the game much more enjoyable ( especially when playing minors). Can't wait to see some of that in 1.03. The game is really getting closer. Just wanted to let you know that your work ( and the other modders) is most appreciated.

 

[unmerged(14054)]

For mods to exist a game must exist and the game must be moddable, and the developers are who make that possible. So don't be that biased.

Maybe it would have been easier to code the game in the way it can't be modded or very little (ie only graphics), to avoid any final manipulation, or for security measures, or only to save time.

Don't be that biased and think twice before you post something.

To say more, the parts which are moddable (al less the core) are like plain english, a easy script language, maybe they could use other language which made things easier, but not, plain english.

 

[unmerged(12885)]

Ok, I'm having a very odd week, and overreacted to slight frustration at the whole patch thing (and everything else in my life). But I think my point was and is quite justified. Let me rephrase it in less hostile terms.

I don't really consider Bolts mod a mod. I consider bolts mod largely fixes and improvements that are not standard or characteristic of mods in most other games.

In most games a mod is either a graphic addition, or a different scenerio or sometimes a seperate game. Bolts mod is aimed at making Paradoxs system work as designed not so much focused on adding new features/options/flags/models.

Instead it makes the world market function as intended.

It is not a conventional mod, and should not be treated like it is one. It is a 1.02 edition C - as in a third iteration of improvement. Trips mod is the same. It was modification that was made to the game to make it more competitive, trying to get more game out of the engine.

And if you look Trips changes ARE in the official 1.03 AI build.

I consider Feds mod to be slightly different, since his approach was slightly less holistic and more pragmatic. He desired a more challenging game, and set up a scenerio that was more challenging. It is more of a conventional Mod, although to be honest I think that packaging Feds mod as part of an official release might be a good idea too.

The impact of these main 3 HoI modders on HoI is not standard.

NOTES:

I do not think that they should randomly pic mods to make standard. I think that the Trip mods and much of the Bolt mods are different, and should be included in the offical version.

I still stand by the fact that there should be financial (even if it is a token sum - say $50-100) compensation to modders AND testers (there was a tester who got mad cuz he thought I was excluding him - I am not) who contributed to the game itself. Maybe Paradox is so broke that sum is really too much (its possible that it would come out of other peoples paychecks) - in which case at minimum special thanks should be made in credits, and in further printed manuals. Yes I am totally serious.

The bottom line is just that I think that there are a number of Modder changes that should be integrated into official patches. This is largely for casual players who would not install a mod (there are many), but also an official patched version of the game should really NOT have problems that were fixed in a user mod.

 

[unmerged(11117)]

The difference mods have made to HOI cannot be understated. I mentioned Bolt because that is what I have been mainly playing, but of course Trip & Fed have done significant work too.

The difference in HOI 1.00 vs 1.02c Bolts of War is incredible. HOI 1.00 was a bitter disappointment.

Paradox's team (+ Betas) provided a great canvas, but it was Bolted HOI that really made the picture.

 

[unmerged(8319)]

Hey...let's distinguish between general whining+complaints and then serious rants based on impatience.

Whining and complaining is OK IMO as long as it doesn't turn into actual attacks and insults. We're entitled - as customers - to complain about the shortcomings in the product we bought.

But a blatant hetzing, I don't see any need for. For heavens sake, it's just a game after all.

 

[unmerged(11117)]

Originally posted by Sgt. Bulldog
it's just a game after all.

just a game ? just a game ?

WW II on a grand strategic scale ... just a game !?!

Time you started going out less and spending more time playing

 

[unmerged(14054)]

you are suggesting to completly change they way this market runs nowadays.

Forget the era of finished products with no bugs. Games are very complex now, we have impatience customers and impatience publishers to get their money (aka Stategy Worst, who has sold more unfinished products that anyone in this world), in definitive games are released unfinished and bugged, and get fixed with patches, process which can last years (see WWIIOL). The best solution I can find is direct sell from them to us, better for all.

Testers were paid before, long years ago, it was a job. But the maket has changed totally. Because what you are saying the guys who made the CS mod for HL should get all the money, because, if they not changed the core game (at the begining) they have expanded the live (and the sells) of the original HL 5 years. Modding in fundamental nowadays, it expand ive and sells of products, and is not paid. That's why developersd release SDK or make things easier for modders (this agme is no exception).

The benefits of the modders are long term, if you are good and constant in your work you finish either working as developer of your own game or incorporate to other corporations, the cases are innumerable.

Well, anwer me this: what do you prefer, paradox expanding the period between patches and adding the final touches. Or giving the framwework to do it and go on more important things. Ask the impatient customers what they want, I already know the anwer.

If your anwer is that all the system is wrong, I will agree, but that's soemthing is neither in our hands or in their hands, things are that way, sorry, adpat or left, easy choise.

 

[unmerged(10997)]

For the past 3 years I have been working on modifications on the 1992 game "Pacific War". A bunch of us have dedicated many hours of our lives in the past 3 years toward these patches, which not only enhance gameplay, but fix glaring problems. For the past 3 years, not a single one of us has been paid, and we would never dream of being paid. We are not just doing this for the community, but also selfishly because we ourselves want a game of this theme, theatre and scale and want it to be the best that it can.

Bolt does this because he like to do it. He spends hours tweaking things, because to him (probably) it is entertaining and rewarding. Modders mod because they want to, because they see promise in a good or potentially good game. It is tribute to the development team that we mod, because we see the potential in the product that they created. Sure there are faults, this is a no-brainer in 21st Centrury computer gaming industries.

Paradox fixed things in the 1.03 patch that Bolt, Trip, Federalist, etc could not fix. Things like the production bug, expeditionary bugs, etc., that none of the modders were able to repair were completed in the 1.03 patch.

Why do you think they concentrated on these instead of what was already fixed in these mods? Because they knew that the modders could relatively easily adapt their mods into the new patch, avoiding a lot of time spent incorporating their mods, bit by bit, into an official mod. 1.03 may, as a whole, be less playable then Bolt's 1.02 mod, but the changes in 1.03 patch fixed major problems that could never be dreamed of fixing in any mod.

We all knew that 1.03 was not going to be the last Patch for HoI. It is a significant step from the 1.02 patch. I am sure that the Bolted Mod will be incorporated for 1.03 soon enough, either by Bolt, or by some other modder should Bolt be too busy with 1.04.

As a modder, I understand that this is a labour of fun, not requiring a cash incentive. Money cannot buy happiness, but modding can.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by Jack Frost
I still stand by the fact that there should be financial (even if it is a token sum - say $50-100) compensation to modders AND testers (there was a tester who got mad cuz he thought I was excluding him - I am not) who contributed to the game itself. Maybe Paradox is so broke that sum is really too much (its possible that it would come out of other peoples paychecks) - in which case at minimum special thanks should be made in credits, and in further printed manuals. Yes I am totally serious.

Well, I don't think I'm violating my EU2 beta CDA to tell you that Paradox gave us free copies of the game at the end (you don't test on a commercial copy with manuals & such). So, I imagine that is standard procedure (other EU2 betas who had been betas before talked like it was). I do believe that satisfies your "token sum" compensation. For late-recruited betas (i.e. those recruited after the game's release who already own commercial copies) they could give a free copy of CK when it comes out. Also, you should be aware that to the leading modder on EU (the original one) they gave an even better reward - a full time salaried job helping to make EU2! So, I think you are being a bit unfair to Paradox.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Originally posted by MuaDib
The difference in HOI 1.00 vs 1.02c Bolts of War is incredible. HOI 1.00 was a bitter disappointment.

Not a fair comparison, as the base for 1.02c Bolts of War was HOI 1.02, not HOI 1.00. That said, Bolt made some great improvements in his 1.02-based mods. Now that he's officially "on the team", I anticipate most of that stuff becoming "official".

 

[Derek Pullem]

PS We haven't got even a promise of a free HoI yet But then again entry into CK beta is probably worth more .....if it happens.

Derek

Beta EU2, Legion and HoI

PS - we didn't get a free copy of Legion either but as I didn't exactly star in that beta I wasn't complaining

 

[unmerged(12007)]

This is the last time I will post in this thread, mainly because I don't want it to appear I'm bumping it gratuituously.

But, I felt that I had to just say something I left out of my last post:

Thanks.

It is nice to be recognized by some in the community as one who has contributed to the game, and your words do much to "soothe the aching heart," as it were.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

You must be knew around the net...

...or you would know that modding is very old hobby, the greatest tactical wargame of all time Steel Panthers is still living in form of three completely overhauled free games available for download ( http://www.wargamer.com/spcammo ) all of which have very little of there original selves left. Numerous other games relay heavily on user made scenarios to keep them alive ( http://www.wargamer.com/archive/ ). So Paradox is simply taking things one step further by making almost open source game what is in my opinion light years ahead of companies which guard each byte of there crappy game code better then Fort Knox.

Although free copy of the game for serious modders (so they can start working as early as possible of course) would be nice.

 

[unmerged(1345)]

Originally posted by Jack Frost
I consider Feds mod to be slightly different, since his approach was slightly less holistic and more pragmatic. He desired a more challenging game, and set up a scenerio that was more challenging. It is more of a conventional Mod, although to be honest I think that packaging Feds mod as part of an official release might be a good idea too.

Hi

When I modded the '39 scenario (called Total War), it was done in a holistic fashion: 23 NEW AI scripts were written for dozens of countries in the game (Total War was the first Mod to include the most ai scripts); almost ALL units in the game had changes made to their stats (Total War pioneered the reduced speed concept and additional testing continues in this field); almost 150 NEW events were written for the '39 scenario alone (many were done by Extro and sisyphus); NEW victory conditions were conceived in order to defeat the USSR; literally dozens and dozens of changes were made to almost ALL of the military forces in the game (France received 50 additional divisions alone); and many, many more changes were made (such as adding the Afrika Korps to North Africa), etc. . .

This doesn't include the many hours of testing. . .

I made the '39 scenario challenging just as other modders made the '36 scenario challenging. . .

This doesn't include the 13 new sound effects and battle sounds I put together for the game. They will give you a whole new gaming experience

Have fun!