Bombing campaigns

[CHRIS3169]

Does strategic or carpet bombing cause civilian casualties?

I never noticed it in videos or let's plays, or heard it talked about, but strategic, and maybe even more so indiscriminate bombing should do some damage to manpower reserves of a country.

::Next paragraph removed to avoid violating terms of service::

 

[Axe99]

From the forum rules thread (stickied in the HoI4 forum):

"NOTE: Strategic bombing in HoI4 will be abstracted and not allow you to terror bomb civilians specifically. Chemical weapons will also not be included in the game. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed without discussion."

I know you're not complaining, per se, but the devs have made it pretty clear it won't be in the game.

 

[kviiri]

Everything is abstracted in the loss of factories.

 

[Ricard2037]

I don't think , the people who dies it's reflexed in industry efficiency.

It's a combo about people dying and factories destroyed

 

[CHRIS3169]

Wow I didn't even think of that when I posted this. I'm not really arguing in favor of terror bombing(the v weapons are terror weapons and are in the game, and using nukes affects national unity, which is basically an abstract way of factoring in a terror weapon, although not a purely terror weapon like the v1, which in fact are called "vengeance weapons"), I'm just arguing that in line with the abstracted aspect of bombing, having a small number decrease your manpower reserves over time caused by bombing should be included.

I suppose having a tech focus on carpet bombing to target casualties as apposed to industry does violate the rules however, but it would be an interesting mechanic. I'll edit it out however.

The rules also say that there should be no mention of purges, yet they added the great purge for the USSR afterwards.

Except from terms of service:
"Nor will there be the ability to simulate systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game."

Excerpt from USSR dev diary:
"Soviet Union have an interesting focus tree, which you can see part of is in this screenshot, with 5 different paths to progres down.

The Great Purge - Gives benefits later for penalties early."

 

[Lither]

if you bomb a clothing factory, how many dye?
very important question

 

[Ricard2037]

Wow I didn't even think of that when I posted this. I'm not really arguing in favor of terror bombing(the v weapons are terror weapons and are in the game), I'm just arguing that in line with the abstracted aspect of bombing, having a small number decrease your manpower reserves over time caused by bombing should be included.

I suppose having a tech focus on carpet bombing to target casualties as apposed to industry does violate the rules however, but it would be an interesting mechanic. I'll edit it out however.

The rules also say that there should be no mention of purges, yet they added the great purge for the USSR afterwards.

An amount of the people who was on the factories, were women, the manpower it's a pool different than the population pool.

 

[CHRIS3169]

An amount of the people who was on the factories, were women, the manpower it's a pool different than the population pool.

But bombing was highly inaccurate. Targeting a munitions factory may miss and take out an apartment complex, or military buildings like officer training schools may be targeted. I don't have the figure for people killed as a result of bombing, but it is massive. It doesn't have to be mentioned in game, but a simple equation to reflect civilian losses on a tooltip shouldn't be very controversial.

Edit: In Germany alone, an estimated 600,000 people were killed from allied bombing. That's 1 percent of the population, not counting people maimed and unable to enter military service as a result. Usually injuries equate to atleast 2 to 5 times the number of deaths, so it is enough to be a factor in a game aiming for realism.

I respect paradoxes decision to avoid controversial issues, however. It makes the game funner since there's no human aspect to worry about or turn you off from the game. I agree 100 percent about avoiding warcrimes, since it serves no purpose in the game, but realities of war that are factors in winning and losing should be added. Despite this stance, I'll support paradoxes decision on the topic and won't complain if they determine that this topic violates the tos and remove it, even if I think dialogue about it in an adult manner is important.

 

[kviiri]

You're veering dangerously close to off-limits topics here.

 

[Vollheld]

Except from terms of service:
"Nor will there be the ability to simulate systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game."

Excerpt from USSR dev diary:
"Soviet Union have an interesting focus tree, which you can see part of is in this screenshot, with 5 different paths to progres down.

The Great Purge - Gives benefits later for penalties early."

I don't know exactly, but wasn't the "Great Purge" more like a political coup? (please correct me, if I'm wrong!)
So it just has "purge" in the name, but it is not a "systematic purge" where you kill a specific population of your nation (e.g. the Jews in the Holocaust).

 

[CHRIS3169]

Stalin killed millions in his purges. The great purge was the arrest(and usual murder, or work til you die gulag sentence) of officers, political leaders, and basically anyone Stalin thought may oppose him. At the end of the day, the great purge was the systematic murder of an estimated 1000 people a day for 2 years.

Some refer to it as "The Great Terror." Some estimate that over 5 percent of the population were arrested in total. Charges were falsified, brutal torture occurred, people were forced to accuse innocent friends, colleagues, and even family members of anti revolutionary action(I love how established communist states like USSR and even China today still refer to themselves as revolutionaries despite reigning in relative comfort in large countries for decades, and actual revolutionaries seeking to depose them are called antirevolutionaries...shades of yakof smirnoff), and Stalin became the biggest mass murderer in history as a result.

Edit: sorry. Chairman Mao just haunted me to inform me that he makes Stalin look like a purse snatcher.

The Wikipedia page on the purge is actually well cited and surprisingly thorough if you're interested in reading more on it in detail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

 

[Geronimo1]

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for this thread.

R.I.P

 

[Axe99]

Wow I didn't even think of that when I posted this. I'm not really arguing in favor of terror bombing(the v weapons are terror weapons and are in the game, and using nukes affects national unity, which is basically an abstract way of factoring in a terror weapon, although not a purely terror weapon like the v1, which in fact are called "vengeance weapons"), I'm just arguing that in line with the abstracted aspect of bombing, having a small number decrease your manpower reserves over time caused by bombing should be included.

I suppose having a tech focus on carpet bombing to target casualties as apposed to industry does violate the rules however, but it would be an interesting mechanic. I'll edit it out however.

The rules also say that there should be no mention of purges, yet they added the great purge for the USSR afterwards.

Except from terms of service:
"Nor will there be the ability to simulate systematic purges, so I ask you not to discuss these topics as they are not related to this game."

Excerpt from USSR dev diary:
"Soviet Union have an interesting focus tree, which you can see part of is in this screenshot, with 5 different paths to progres down.

The Great Purge - Gives benefits later for penalties early."

Wasn't trying to have a go or anything, my post was just a friendly heads-up . I don't make or enforce the rules, I just hang out here and chew the fat about HoI4.

 

[Ibn_Solmyr]

As soon as we talk about massive civilian losses, we talk about humanity crimes, war crimes, or at the very least "the most abject aspects of a war" and all those aren't officially (or formely at least) represented in the game, and the game dev process will not let such topics be discussed.
I understand your question though, and as said above, your industrial potential will suffer and this is able to abstractly reprensent a lot of things...

 

[Comrade110]

I like how this game is about the most savage war in human history, you can see how many men/tanks/planes you lost, but when it comes to civilians, some magical stupid field happens, all losses in your army are people anyway, civilian are people aswell, probably it is just some bull laws made by useless drooling idiots in goverment.