Bolted HoI - In the Works Thread

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Bolt,

Just curious about the possibility of adding an event where the Soviet Union (Comintern) might declare war on the Allies if Germany falls or dependent on some other condition. I know that there are numerous alternate outcome events in the game, and I didn't know if it would be possible to script one that might result in a DOW. The reason I ask is because 1) it was obvious to Roosevelt and Churchhill who the next enemy was going to be; 2) it was suggested by some that we turn the Germans loose and fight alongside them against the Reds; and 3) it's been awhile since my WW2 history class, but I do think someone mentioned about how Stalin at one time contemplated driving all the way to the Atlantic, regardless of who was there, in the name of spreading communism to the masses.

This might spice up the game's later years (especially if you're playing as an Ally and have already crushed Germany)!

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by Mithel
Playing as Albania it took 20 MP per stock infantry division.

From the numbers we are seeing in the game my guess is that Paradox started with an estimate of 20 MP = 20,000 Men = One Infantry Division - a bit crude but not totally unreasonable. They might have aimed for fewer "divisions" than historical simply to keep the number of units players need to manage down a bit.

- Mithel

I did not verify in a production test that the costs were doubled. The MP costs are indicated in the units files.

If the costs are doubled that's going on internally and only adds weight to the notion that the country manpower pools are WAY off.

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by Dogstar
Bolt,

Just curious about the possibility of adding an event where the Soviet Union (Comintern) might declare war on the Allies if Germany falls or dependent on some other condition. I know that there are numerous alternate outcome events in the game, and I didn't know if it would be possible to script one that might result in a DOW. The reason I ask is because 1) it was obvious to Roosevelt and Churchhill who the next enemy was going to be; 2) it was suggested by some that we turn the Germans loose and fight alongside them against the Reds; and 3) it's been awhile since my WW2 history class, but I do think someone mentioned about how Stalin at one time contemplated driving all the way to the Atlantic, regardless of who was there, in the name of spreading communism to the masses.

This might spice up the game's later years (especially if you're playing as an Ally and have already crushed Germany)!

If one of the three alliances no longer exists (Allies, Axis, Comintern) the game ends.

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by Mithel
Excellent point, there is no such thing as a precise single type of "division". But I'd like to see us approach a point where the rough numbers are basically correct (even if one game division represents two Soviet divisions).

Certainly German leadership and technology in 1941 should give them an advantage over numerically superior Soviet forces. But we need to get to the point where the AI isn't doing silly things like leaving half the front undefended.

I want my decisions to change the flavor of the war and bring about non-historic outcomes but I don't want an obvious tactic to just blow away a totally non-realistic AI.

I think if we are going to get into depth like Bolt is with tweaking the AI production figures we need to get a decent grip on the rough numbers to relate to history.

- Mithel

Game divisions are to me only a tool I use to see if the amount of manpower on the board relates historically to what was present.

If its in the game and there are 160 German divisions attacking roughly 200 Soviet divisions, then you have a historical situation because the Germans were outnumbered by about half a million men at the beginning of Barbarossa. I assure you I am not taking the game term for division literally, I'm only thinking of it in terms of manpower representations.

Going back to the 160 vs 200 thing, if that is the situation in game then I hope the German AI or German player has focussed some research to make his divisions more effective. The Germans start out with a doctrinal and application tech lead in the game that must be preserved or even enlarged if the Germans plan to win. Numbers are not everything in the game, or real life as we all know.

 

[Mithel]

To verify that it takes 20 MP to build a stock Infantry division by all countries I just fired up a game with Germany and carefully observed. Yes... 20 MP per standard infantry division. An armored division however does only take 14 MP.

Earlier this morning I watched a hands off run through. The *biggest* problem I saw was the AI's complete failure to understand "garrisoning". I mentioned in another thread that Italy suicided by declaring war on Yugoslavia with no land forces in Italy (they were all over in Albania). Germany failed to put anything on it's coast allowing the UK to land invasions repeatedly.

I was also concerned with Germany's lackluster performance. Even though Spain was part of the Axis (yet Italy wasn't! - definitely a strange game) and Spanish troops initially drove into France, the Germans did nothing on the French border (in fact they lost a province) while they were busy *slowly* defeating Poland. This continued until the end of 1942 when the Soviet Union rolled through the baltic states and on into Germany to defeat Germany (Spain fought on against the UK and France for the rest of the war). Amazing! Simply amazing that the Spanish could hold out for ten years but the Germans were wiped out in 1943.

Every time the Russians fought Finland they also stripped the Polish border of all forces (certainly very BRAVE of those Ruskies!).

I'd say the "front AI" still has major problems in that it doesn't have a clue about leaving a screening or garrison force anywhere.

And this inspired a truly bizarre thought... what if we changed Militia to be "Garrison" units with a movement rating of ZERO? Would the AI leave them in place?

- Mithel

 

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Originally posted by Mithel
To verify that it takes 20 MP to build a stock Infantry division by all countries I just fired up a game with Germany and carefully observed. Yes... 20 MP per standard infantry division. An armored division however does only take 14 MP.

Earlier this morning I watched a hands off run through. The *biggest* problem I saw was the AI's complete failure to understand "garrisoning". I mentioned in another thread that Italy suicided by declaring war on Yugoslavia with no land forces in Italy (they were all over in Albania). Germany failed to put anything on it's coast allowing the UK to land invasions repeatedly.

I was also concerned with Germany's lackluster performance. Even though Spain was part of the Axis (yet Italy wasn't! - definitely a strange game) and Spanish troops initially drove into France, the Germans did nothing on the French border (in fact they lost a province) while they were busy *slowly* defeating Poland. This continued until the end of 1942 when the Soviet Union rolled through the baltic states and on into Germany to defeat Germany (Spain fought on against the UK and France for the rest of the war). Amazing! Simply amazing that the Spanish could hold out for ten years but the Germans were wiped out in 1943.

Every time the Russians fought Finland they also stripped the Polish border of all forces (certainly very BRAVE of those Ruskies!).

I'd say the "front AI" still has major problems in that it doesn't have a clue about leaving a screening or garrison force anywhere.

And this inspired a truly bizarre thought... what if we changed Militia to be "Garrison" units with a movement rating of ZERO? Would the AI leave them in place?

- Mithel

I mentioned this in a post as well. I think it would be fairly easy to rectify, just have the front ai realize that beaches/borders(even if not at war) are still fronts. Maybe something in the ai can be programmed to understand minor vs major fronts so that it maintains some forces, just not the majority of them to inactive fronts. It'd be nice too if the ai had some concept of how much it might be losing a war in order to justify moving troops from these minor fronts to major ones (ie, if the su is getting pushed back hard, perhaps its time to pull in the divs in the south and far east)

 

[Mithel]

I agree, the AI should automatically know to garrison any coastal province with at least one division. The idea here is that the delay to the invasion troops is enough for the AI to realize this is now a front and to rush troops to defend. Open beaches are an invitation for "exploitation".

I mentioned in another thread I did create a new militia "model" that has a speed of zero. Unfortunately the game assigns it a speed of one.

- Mithel

 

[unmerged(2368)]

Bolt, did you see this thread:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=62780
Its a very interesting observation about the AI and forts. Well worth reading.

 

[unmerged(2368)]

Oh, and for what its worth....
German Division numbers:
Infantry Old Type: 17,000
Infantry 1944 Type: 12,500
Volks Grenadier: 10,000
SS Infantry: 14,000
Army Mountain: 13,000
Army Motorized: 14,000
Army Armored: 14,000
SS Armored: 17,000
Air Force Parachute: 16,000
Cavalry: 16,000
I've omitted numerous types, including Coast Defense, etc.
These numbers come from "U. S. War Department Handbook on German Military Forces" originaly published in 1945, reprinted in 1995.

I don't really want to get involved in the debate, just thought I'd through out some numbers from a good source.

 

[Marquoz]

Interesting. That would certainly explain my last 4 games (as France, Italy, the USSR, and hands-off) in which Germany never got out of Belgium (3 out of 4) or conquered France at an absurdly slow pace (1 out of 4; it took 2.25 years for them to get to Paris).

Bad German AI makes playing an Allied nation or the Soviets absurdly simple, since they are the cornerstone of the Axis. Bad British AI does the same in reverse, leading to a guaranteed Allied defeat. Right now, I can't have an enjoyable game since 2 of the 3 alliances are crippled by AI flaws and pose no challenge whatsoever. Of the 3 alliance leaders, only the Soviet AI seems to be competent--not brilliant by any means, but at least capable of posing a threat. The Italian, Japanese, and French AI's are also decent.

Better British and German behavior would go a long, long way towards making this the game it could be.

 

[Janster]

manpower

hmm I'm thinkin the game's manpower is seriously out of whack

For me the most populous nations was

Russia
Usa
Japan
Germany
UK

but the game has it
Usa 35+ manpower
Germany 13,5 manpower
UK can't remember but 10+ i think
Russia 8,5
Japan 6,6

Now these numbers looks to be just taken out of the air by paradox, maybe a mod could change them to more realistic levels.

Both Russia and Japan should have more manpower, while Usa should have less.

Janster

 

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Another issue for 1.03 patch - I hope.

 

[unmerged(11731)]

Mar,

Agree with your post wholehaertedly. I made a thread that the ai needs serious fixing and the game is to the point of boring right now. My thread was moved to off-topic conversation when we started comparing civ3, HOI, and MOO3. Go figure.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Bolt, have you altered movement at all for your mod?

 

[unmerged(9308)]

We are surely needing some
Bolt ressuruction, so don´t hurry too much,
just accordingly to make some nice better version of HoI 1.02
that everybody want, cause you are the next best
HoI except 1.03 patch

 

[unmerged(12007)]

Originally posted by Trip
Bolt, have you altered movement at all for your mod?

Militia is slowed to 2, Infantry to 3, Cavalry to 6. No changes to speed for other motorized units.

 

[unmerged(11746)]

Its hard to tell just how much manpower the AI currently "wastes" to attrition of units in low-infrastructure provinces...

so, as far as AI manpower is concerned, what it does have may well not be being used "efficiently". (though how much this is offset by the ai "cheating" and avoiding low-infra atrrition i also dont know).... certainly the way it fritters away entire armies to single-division amphibious assaults is immense... running a couple of tests ive seen australia, canada, new zealand, south africa and the UK ALL run their manpower down to zero doing this to a static germany holding La Rochelle and other ex-french coastal provinces.

Probably not a lot BOLT can do about this - although i have seen the AI sending over US forces ing roups of 5-6 when it remembers to get that many transports together as one force - and those were "merged units" also - not just 5 individual divisions... so there is some hope.

It would be nice if the AI could recognise coatal defences and not send in troops until it has the higher amphibious assault doctriensa nd mechanised amphib-assault techs with marines...

doing some play-testing with those and they CAN actually take out even coastally-fortified provinces manned by defenders - it may be an issue of these being too "late tech" mind you - not for the US but certianly for the countries like the ANZACs and even the UK.... those techs are an absolute necssity for opposed beach landings and make it a different proposition entirely.

Maybe in 1.03.. in the meantime we have to watch the oconstant suicide of cavalry et el against the beaches of Normandy and elsewhere.

- - -

Bolt: re movement:

Are the movement speeds of the Armoured units still at their defaults? And would you consider lowering them if they are?

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Bolt
Militia is slowed to 2, Infantry to 3, Cavalry to 6. No changes to speed for other motorized units.

I suggest you lower it even more... I'm sure you've heard of my two week campaign in Russia...

 

[Grandpa Maur]

Re: manpower

Originally posted by Janster
hmm I'm thinkin the game's manpower is seriously out of whack

For me the most populous nations was

Russia
Usa
Japan
Germany
UK

but the game has it
Usa 35+ manpower
Germany 13,5 manpower
UK can't remember but 10+ i think
Russia 8,5
Japan 6,6

Now these numbers looks to be just taken out of the air by paradox, maybe a mod could change them to more realistic levels.

Both Russia and Japan should have more manpower, while Usa should have less.

Janster

Japan had smaller population than Germany. And you messed some numbers (SU is 13.5, Germany is ~24 or something).

Other than that, i completly agree.

 

[unmerged(3352)]

Bold, could you consider loweing the speed for armor units?

See this thread for my reasons link