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I don’t have Jade Dragon and will hold off on it due to said map changes, but have everything before it, so your previous advice/thoughts should still hold.
I believe it was a patch for the game itself, so unless you specified an older edition when you loaded your save I think it's changed. You'd have to go check the patch announcement or the wiki or something and then look at your map and the de jure counties, duchie, kingdoms and empires.
I believe it was a patch for the game itself, so unless you specified an older edition when you loaded your save I think it's changed. You'd have to go check the patch announcement or the wiki or something and then look at your map and the de jure counties, duchie, kingdoms and empires.
Hmm, well I didn’t do that and don’t know the game or the area well enough to notice the difference! So I’ll just play what I have in front of me: the Thing has a pretty comprehensive snapshot of the immediate surrounds, so that will be the context for next steps.
Karelia.Pros: small-medium sized levy; not in pact; Ääninen tribe has a shipyard. Cons: High Chief Tuure has the piety for a religious horde; the shipyard could be on its northern (Arctic) coast.
Finnish Duchies. Another consideration for the Finnish options is the de jure duchies there and the fact that conquering enough counties there would eventually allow them to be established. There are two in southern Finland: Karelia (of which Kexholm is already one of the four counties which constitute it); and Satakunta (made up of six counties). Of these, Karelia is closer and more contiguous with Garðaríki and one of the counties is already held. But of the remaining three provinces, only Ääninen has a shipyard or capacity to build one.
ah you already considered that I'm writing comments as I read so as to convey the changes of my emotional responses to what happens in the AAR, so there's that.
Ch39 Q1. Shipyard Capacity.Mainly an observation, but also double-checking something: it seems some counties, even though they are coastal (such as Karjala) don’t even have the option of building a shipyard. I wonder what the basis for determining that is. The other is in Ääninen, where would the built ships appear? Only on the north (White Sea) coast, therefore having to make it the long way around Scandinavia and then the Baltic to get to Garðaríki proper? Or (I’m assuming not, because there is no channel from the north to the lakes) could they appear in one of the lakes (Ladoga or Onega)? I’m assuming not, because Ladoga county (mine) has access to the lake and thence the sea via the channel past Ingria, but has no capacity to build a shipyard, thus my assumption they can only be built on sea coasts, and that is thus where the ships would appear. If so, this makes Ääninen less attractive as a shipyard acquisition.
I would've thought Karjala should be able to build a shipyard eventually, I don't know of any reason why a coastal province cannot build a shipyard, but as I said before, my men never trusted any water that their horses couldn't drink. On the other hand, the shipyard being on the arctic sea is no issue since you are germanic and can navigate the rivers in war or peace. Here I am assuming Lake Onega flows northwards to Arctic sea just east of Aaninen. If that's not the case the long way might be necessary. Maybe you can try to navigate there with your fleet now to try to see if it works?
“I do not disagree, but Karelia could be another viable approach,” suggests Hrolfr. “The county of Ääninen could be a useful acquisition. It has a shipyard, though that may be made less attractive if it is on the northern coast: we should investigate that. But it is another county of the de jure Jarldom of Karelia. The concern though is High Chief Tuure’s ability to raise a religious horde. Even with Vsemil and Grimr’s men answering the call, it could be hard going without our own tribal army: added to his own levy, those religious warriors field a high proportion of heavy infantry. Our more lightly armed levies could find it difficult, even if we can muster larger numbers (not guaranteed) and better leadership. As an option, I think it possible, but am left a bit uneasy by my own suggestion.”
I'm with Hrolfr here, mostly because i'm a title hoarder and cannot wait to create a new jarldom but also agree about the military side of things so all in all it might be better to go for Pohjanmaa. That will also envelop the rest of the Finnish provinces so that Rurik's father in law wouldn't lay his hands on them.
“Very ripe for the picking, I’d say,” says Hrolfr. “We take one of the other two counties, sack as many other holdings as we need to make him cough it up and come back for the others sometime in the future, after any treaty expires. Best to get started on them soon, in that case.”
“But he too is at war – with Turov, which he attacked with the aim of seizing Minsk.” Hrolfr makes this observation with some restrained glee. “And I hear Dyre is in trouble too. High Chief Bogdan of Turov looks to have summoned two hordes of religious zealots, outnumbers Dyre’s current forces heavily, and has actually occupied the county of Turov off Dyre. Though Bogdan is short of funds – in debt actually - and this may cause him problems. Perhaps now is the time to act and bring Mohaysk into the fold – a true part of Garðaríki. We will have a reckoning with Konugarðr one day – perhaps we should take the first bite soon, while they are temporarily vulnerable?”
Chap39 Q2: Conquer or Raid?This is a question of views on what might be done next. First, I’d be interested in thoughts on the options, within what was considered, but also whether you think I should not have discounted something else. But mainly, whether it should be one more conquest at least for now or change direction for a while and raid again (always a good Viking option too). And if conquest, which might we target.
Chap39 Q3: Revolt Risk.I haven’t focused on this before. Perhaps I should have. The mention of revolt risk reduction in the ‘Realm Prosper’ ambition prompted me to look at it. I’ve been lucky and have had no peasant revolts as yet. How do the figures on the map look? Is that -1 reduction perhaps worth considering? Or don’t these numbers cause you much worry. Of course, the more counties under rule, the more chance one of these might trigger and that could be quite pesky, I imagine. Welcome any general views and comments.
I didn't like either of the ambitions for now, but i'd like the prosperity one once we hit the badboy limit or truce with everybody. revolts are not that scary, i never had a problem of overwhelming revolts. they only rarely happen and your main army would be more than enough to crush them. although, more experienced players can have more nuanced options here.
i always see this "tall" used as in playing tall or building tall. what exactly does that mean?
a more general comment would be, if you're stuck with this one county at a time CB and nothing else, you do not have the luxury of waiting around prospering if you're not already bound to do so by badboy. what i'm saying is, you can only take 1 county in 1 war and there are only so many countries you can war with until the first one is out of truce so you have to make the best of that limited time and amass some provinces quickly. then prosper while burning that badboy.
You know the debate between quantity and quality? This is where quality is doubled down upon and you develop the smack out of everything you have and push your land to the limits to develop the most advanced and powerful realm in the world before expanding outwards, against far less advanced but numerically larger enemies. Essentially...that thing which tends to work very well in OTL. Playing as a pagan tribal ruler, eventually it becomes required practice, unless you want to go to war a son soon as you spawn and never stop. Generally, the best strategy is to build a large as you can empire, around a defensive place, and then spend some time upgrading everything to the max. It's also one of two strategies open to Scandinavia (the other being basically abandoning their low value lands and sending everything somewhere else).
You know the debate between quantity and quality? This is where quality is doubled down upon and you develop the smack out of everything you have and push your land to the limits to develop the most advanced and powerful realm in the world before expanding outwards, against far less advanced but numerically larger enemies. Essentially...that thing which tends to work very well in OTL. Playing as a pagan tribal ruler, eventually it becomes required practice, unless you want to go to war a son soon as you spawn and never stop. Generally, the best strategy is to build a large as you can empire, around a defensive place, and then spend some time upgrading everything to the max. It's also one of two strategies open to Scandinavia (the other being basically abandoning their low value lands and sending everything somewhere else).
There are many ponderous and weighty matters to attend to lord king but my instinct tells me conquest rather than raiding-the time for consolidation and peace can be left to your son
The Fourteenth Thing of Rurik’s Reign – November 880 (a summary of advice from Chapter 39)
extra pro for Savo and Karelia: if you take Savo, Karjala or Aaninen, you can create the duchy level title of Karelia.
ah you already considered that I'm writing comments as I read so as to convey the changes of my emotional responses to what happens in the AAR, so there's that.
All good: understood and appreciated. Others do that sometimes too and I enjoy it – a bit more ‘live’ when commenting on events as they happen vs when we’re exploring the Q&As.
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Ch39 Q1. Shipyard Capacity.Mainly an observation, but also double-checking something: it seems some counties, even though they are coastal (such as Karjala) don’t even have the option of building a shipyard. I wonder what the basis for determining that is. The other is in Ääninen, where would the built ships appear? Only on the north (White Sea) coast, therefore having to make it the long way around Scandinavia and then the Baltic to get to Garðaríki proper? Or (I’m assuming not, because there is no channel from the north to the lakes) could they appear in one of the lakes (Ladoga or Onega)? I’m assuming not, because Ladoga county (mine) has access to the lake and thence the sea via the channel past Ingria, but has no capacity to build a shipyard, thus my assumption they can only be built on sea coasts, and that is thus where the ships would appear. If so, this makes Ääninen less attractive as a shipyard acquisition.
Got it - that part is clear. I guess my question arose more because I thought Karjala should at least have had an option of building a shipyard, so I wondered (out aloud) whether there were other factors as well (per Diskoerekto's comment below).
I would've thought Karjala should be able to build a shipyard eventually, I don't know of any reason why a coastal province cannot build a shipyard, but as I said before, my men never trusted any water that their horses couldn't drink. On the other hand, the shipyard being on the arctic sea is no issue since you are germanic and can navigate the rivers in war or peace. Here I am assuming Lake Onega flows northwards to Arctic sea just east of Aaninen. If that's not the case the long way might be necessary. Maybe you can try to navigate there with your fleet now to try to see if it works?
I'm still uncertain re Karjala and may one day find out re Aaninen, but must assume for now that it is only accessible to/via the north. Anything more would be a pleasant surprise.
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Chap39 Q2: Conquer or Raid?This is a question of views on what might be done next. First, I’d be interested in thoughts on the options, within what was considered, but also whether you think I should not have discounted something else. But mainly, whether it should be one more conquest at least for now or change direction for a while and raid again (always a good Viking option too). And if conquest, which might we target.
From my reading of the conditions on the mouse-overs, it talks about war declared, and you don’t declare war for raids (I guess they are more like vigorous commercial ventures ). But I don’t really know so hence the open question on what could be a wrong assumption.
They are compatible so far as I am aware. Ive only ever used the 5 year peace as a roleplaying tool however and a couple times to check what it does. Then again I've found its one of the only ones I have open to me after a few decades with one character.
It's somewhat useful I guess for building tall and old rulers. And in your case, people stuck under the badboy system (and not powerful enough to just blast through it for even more prestige farming). War chest however I dont like. Stewing up rebellions and ruining tax bases for a couple quid.
Yes, I'll test out the 5 year rule & raiding at some point (where immediately or some time later), but am pretty assured raiding would be available during the 5-year peace. As for war chest - from my position of little knowledge, I agree. Especially for an early tribal realm with hardly any trade, like the current Garðariki.
Q2: Conquering is nice, but gavelkind can make weird things happen (auto forming top-level titles so othe sons get stuff). Make sure you don't conquer to the point you could usurp or create a second kingdom. Beyond that, I tend to have a preference for raiding.
Wise words: if there is any more conquering in the near future, it would be pretty limited and hopefully shouldn't play too much havoc with succession. If it does - well then, it will all be good for the learning theme and a good game challenge.
Can also confirm that the "See the Realm Prosper" ambition only cares about whether you're in a state of declared war -- for pagans and tribals, apparently, raiding is just "business as usual" Honestly, I'd take the ambition and spend that time on another raiding expedition; it'll build up your coffers and your prestige quickly, plus it'll give some time for your Threat level to cool down and reduce the threat of the defensive pacts.
I'm sure Rurik will end up doing something like this - just needs to figure out whether his immediate conquering options should be put away before doing so.
Mm...not sure which target to go for. The best ones would be the scandinavian ones though. Those huge eastern gatherings are just...something to marry into and inherit instead I think. Or wait for realm divide to kick in. Pray Hungary gets problems too because I suspect they are going into Scandinavian lands too through denmark.
Ah...ignore most of what i said about counties. It's been over a month since I played CKII and the devs have revamped eastern europe, russia and the western steppes.
Uh...right. I dont know how up to date your map is so can't really give much advice. What I used to be able to suggest was that the scandinavian provinces were a better shot because they are very easy to defend and it's very easy to make a scandiavian empire. However, Russia looks to be a little easier to form in this version and the other empires around it have been downsized.
So long as you are sticking to raiding and paganism, the peninsula is still your best shout. It's only bad aspects are how shockingly poor the land is and how few people there are in it...but raiding offsets the former and as for population...you're Russia...
<Re Finland> I'm with Hrolfr here, mostly because i'm a title hoarder and cannot wait to create a new jarldom but also agree about the military side of things so all in all it might be better to go for Pohjanmaa. That will also envelop the rest of the Finnish provinces so that Rurik's father in law wouldn't lay his hands on them.
a more general comment would be, if you're stuck with this one county at a time CB and nothing else, you do not have the luxury of waiting around prospering if you're not already bound to do so by badboy. what i'm saying is, you can only take 1 county in 1 war and there are only so many countries you can war with until the first one is out of truce so you have to make the best of that limited time and amass some provinces quickly. then prosper while burning that badboy.
There are many ponderous and weighty matters to attend to lord king but my instinct tells me conquest rather than raiding-the time for consolidation and peace can be left to your son.
And one should usually trust one's instincts ... most of the time!
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Chap39 Q3: Revolt Risk.I haven’t focused on this before. Perhaps I should have. The mention of revolt risk reduction in the ‘Realm Prosper’ ambition prompted me to look at it. I’ve been lucky and have had no peasant revolts as yet. How do the figures on the map look? Is that -1 reduction perhaps worth considering? Or don’t these numbers cause you much worry. Of course, the more counties under rule, the more chance one of these might trigger and that could be quite pesky, I imagine. Welcome any general views and comments.
Revolts can happen any time the revolt risk is above zero, so I wouldn't take it for granted, but aside from Kostroma and Ingria I think you're relatively "safe." I don't think -1% is really going to matter in the grand scheme of things by itself, but when stacked with other revolt risk debuffs it can help keep things a little more manageable if you have a few problem spots. The big option for short-term revolt risk suppression (i.e. not stuff like cultural and religious conversion) is using your Marshal to Suppress Rebels in a target province; the revolt risk reduction from that scales to their Martial score. I'm not 100% sure whether that particular job is available to tribals, though.
In its favour, 1% sounds small, but given most are 3% risk, that's a 1/3 reduction (one way of looking at it). You do vaccination programs/health campaigns on those kinds of figures. I'll check re the suppress rebels option (the 10% bolshie county could be worth some attention).
Revolt risk is nothing much to worry about. Religion and culture does it far more often than peasents getting angry with your rule...though it can happen.
Yes, most of the underlying disharmony is culture, then religion, the rest being event-driven, by the looks of it. And given I've taken the long/hard path of trying to change religion and culture to Norse/Germanic (rather than going with the easier Slavic majority option to convert), that will take a long time to abate (if ever).
I didn't like either of the ambitions for now, but i'd like the prosperity one once we hit the badboy limit or truce with everybody. revolts are not that scary, i never had a problem of overwhelming revolts. they only rarely happen and your main army would be more than enough to crush them. although, more experienced players can have more nuanced options here.
Yeah, my only worry/calculation for the revolts is if it happened in the middle of a short war or during a raid where the main army is committed. If for no other reason than to gauge the risk and have some kind of plan for dealing with it if it arose (or just taking the risk).
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Chap39 Q4: Ledger Stats.Have I got that right for those two items under the ledger? It certainly looks that way for the army comparison, anyway.
And realm size tends to count land and vassals separately. Realms tend to need a good amount of vassals and lands split between them to be both powerful and stable.
Thanks all. And yes, Svithjod/Sweden is Bjorn Ironside, Ruruik's father-in-law.
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Thanks so much to you all for very useful strategic and technical advice once again. And to everyone else for reading.
Rurik will decide soon on his immediate course of action soon. There will be blood and battle, of course ... but will it be conquest or raid? Interesting choices – some of which may end up being taken by his successor. And there is no spoiler there: for all I know, Rurik may go on for another 10-15 years! You will find out when his reign ends just after I do.
In the meantime, Rurik will no doubt have trouble sleeping on these weighty matters.
As Henry IV (according to Shakespeare) said:
Go call the Earls of Surrey and of Warwick;
But, ere they come, bid them o'er-read these letters
And well consider of them. Make good speed. Exit page
How many thousands of my poorest subjects
Are at this hour asleep! O sleep, O gentle sleep,
Nature's soft nurse, how have I frightened thee,
That thou no more will weigh my eyelids down,
And steep my senses in forgetfulness?
Why rather, sleep, liest thou in smoky cribs,
Upon uneasy pallets stretching thee,
And hush'd with buzzing night-flies to thy slumber,
Than in the perfum'd chambers of the great,
Under the canopies of costly state,
And lull'd with sound of sweetest melody?
O thou dull god, why liest thou with the vile
In loathsome beds, and leav'st the kingly couch
A watch-case or a common 'larum-bell?
Wilt thou upon the high and giddy mast
Seal up the ship-boy's eyes, and rock his brains
In cradle of the rude imperious surge,
And in the visitation of the winds,
Who take the ruffian billows by the top,
Curling their monstrous heads, and hanging them
With deafing clamour in the slippery clouds,
That with the hurly death itself awakes?
Canst thou, O partial sleep, give thy repose
To the wet sea-boy in an hour so rude;
And in the calmest and most stillest night,
With all appliances and means to boot,
Deny it to a king? Then, happy low, lie down!
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.
Henry IV. Ah, the burdens of leadership.
And Rurik’s head is a particularly uneasy one. Especially after the Pisa Incident!
The big option for short-term revolt risk suppression (i.e. not stuff like cultural and religious conversion) is using your Marshal to Suppress Rebels in a target province; the revolt risk reduction from that scales to their Martial score. I'm not 100% sure whether that particular job is available to tribals, though.
I haven't given Helgi the mission - still madly trying to build up the levies, so he's still recruiting - but this indicates he can be sent to suppress revolts if necessary.
To All: Next play-through done, screenie editing and then writing-up process begun. Some interesting developments and exciting action ahead, even if I do say so myself!
I'm still uncertain re Karjala and may one day find out re Aaninen, but must assume for now that it is only accessible to/via the north. Anything more would be a pleasant surprise.
you don't actually have to go there with your fleet, you can just give a move command to north sea, than while holding shift give a move command to the lake (all the while when the game is paused). if the arrow just continues then there's a passage if it doubles back there's not.
you don't actually have to go there with your fleet, you can just give a move command to north sea, than while holding shift give a move command to the lake (all the while when the game is paused). if the arrow just continues then there's a passage if it doubles back there's not.
Chapter 40: A Hard Fight (9 November 880 – 9 October 881)
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … Rurik’s reduction back to basic levies has prompted a hard look at his options; he may try to conquer or to raid, but will surely look to the blade whichever way he turns; the defensive pact against him seems to be withering away, which may increase his options; he has a new Seer after the death of the trusty Þorolfr – will the new man measure up to his predecessor?
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The King and the Þing
Rurik had ridden ahead to Ingria, where the next Þing was held in early November, 880 CE. Gumarich der Schreiber had provided the normal summaries of the views put on a range of subjects; especially on the main strategic options open to the king. Rurik had slept uneasily on his decision – but then, he often did, according to his personal journal.
Nuyanza’s hall was still being repaired from the recent siege and sacking. But it was there Rurik summoned his military leaders, major vassals and advisers, to impart his commands. Fortunately for us, Gumarich took notes of this important meeting – which have come to us through the most recently translated instalment of the Rurikid Chronicles.
“As the Great King Rurik looked out over the assembled dignitaries of Garðariki, gathered in Chief Nuyanza’s meeting hall, a solemn silence built,” observed the scribe. “Into this silence, the King’s voice rang out, strong and clear.”
“Lords, comrades and Councillors,” began Rurik. “I must thank you sincerely for the advice you have provided. It has truly helped inform my decision. I will make this simple: we are to war again!” A hearty cheer greeted this pronouncement, after which the room settled again.
“High Chief Varaka of Mordva exerts his Ill-Rule over three chiefdoms that are rightfully part of the realm of Garðaríki: my realm; your realm; our realm!” Growls, boos and curses for Varaka followed. “And he is beset by three neighbours, all of whom want a slice of him, for various reasons. All understandable, no doubt.”
“Of the Garðarikian chiefdoms he unjustly holds, we must choose one to return to its true destiny first. The rest, alas, will need to wait for the future. Perhaps you, Helgi, will see to that in years to come. But now, we march to seize Vladimir! Our eventual aim must be to take all three of those chiefdoms, which together can form a strong bulwark against invaders from the great eastern steppes. The great rivers of the interior can form useful obstacles to such depredations – especially if we can build their fortifications over time.”
“Later, we may next look to Finland to build our realm there and place our influence closer to the Holy Sites of Scandinavia – and to increase our shipbuilding capacity. Pohjanmaa may be a suitable addition, or Uusimaa depending on its continued membership of defensive pacts against us. Or even Estonia. That is a question for the future.”
“And if no suitable targets await us after this impending war with Mordva, then we shall look to a period of peace.” The king paused for effect at this point – knowing there will be disappointment at this prospect among the powerful – and bloodthirsty – leaders of the realm.
“Which for us would mean time for great raids – striking fear into the hearts of the rich peoples of Europe and the Mediterranean and seizing plunder and glory in equal measure.” Grins and cheers replace the trepidation of a few moments before.
“So, to arms! Muster the levies! Varaka’s Ill-Rule will be removed from at least one Garðarikian province temporarily held in his unsteady and unworthy hands!” Orders were sent out over the land for a winter troop gathering – and the declaration of war dispatched by a fast rider to the Mordva.
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November-December 880
All the royal demesne levies were summoned, to muster on the border, just west of Vladimir. The two main vassal allies – Smaleskja and Belo Ozero – were not yet called. Perhaps they would not be needed, beset as Varaka was with a multitude of enemies. The allies constituted Rurik’s main reserve, as he wished to avoid summoning another tribal army and cash reserves were not large enough for mercenaries to be comfortably affordable. Rurik would start with a levy of just over 1,900 men.
As all this went on, it seemed Rurik’s other neighbours were happy that he was heading east, outweighing concern that he had again mustered his army for conquest. After all, it was only the Mordvins …
… or then again, maybe not. The chill of a bitter winter fostered fear in the hearts of Rurik’s Finnish neighbours. Perhaps word had leaked out about how close some chiefdom in Finland had been to becoming another Rurikid conquest. In this atmosphere of distrust, High Chief Tuure of Karelia decided he would revive the defensive pact against Rurik, not even two weeks after its predecessor had been dissolved!
Ah well, nothing to be done about that now, thought Rurik to himself. His journal revealed he took the opportunity of his long ride to the east to review what his Council were doing at present. He remained satisfied with their current tasks, which aimed to reduce threat perceptions through diplomacy (while he exacerbated them with conquests); build the levies to their full potential; spread Norse culture in Holmgarðr and the Germanic faith in Ladoga; while his wife continued to try to pry technological secrets from the Byzantines – who seemed to have improved their security of late.
January-March 881
The new year heralded a January spent with Garðarikian forces marching through bitter weather to the mustering point for the liberation of Vladimir. It took until 11 February for that to be completed. Picking up extra numbers along the way, Rurik’s army now numbered over 2,100 – and no Mordvin forces had been observed along the border. They must be occupied fighting their other enemies for now. All to the good.
By 21 February, Rurik was camped outside the stockade of Vladimir. The siege – and the war itself – began in earnest. There was a substantial garrison – they would take time to wear down.
That task was soon aided from within the town – it seemed some of the locals would indeed welcome a change of leadership!
March passed with the siege continuing and no sign of relieving Mordvin troops. Gumarich was directed to gather information on how fared the other three wars Varaka was fighting. It seemed he was now slightly ahead in his war with Mari, where High Chief Tutya sought to subjugate the Mordvins – this despite having two provinces in Mari hands by now. Khan Sokal ‘the Fat’ of the Cumans was however doing well in the east of Mordva. Another ‘Cleansing Flame’ – Chief Yavdi of Khopyoria (a small realm just south of Vladimir) had not made any significant start on his holy war against the Mordvin.
And in King Dyre’s war to seize Minsk from Bogdan of Turov, Dyre was well on top, despite having both the county of Turov and his capital in enemy hands! Clearly, his large kingdom could better sustain such occupation that the Turovians, who in turn had lost Minsk (one of only two provinces they controlled) to Dyre. It now seemed clear Konugarðr would win this war. It was just as well they had been discounted as an invasion target!
April 881
The beginning of April, along with hints of the approaching spring, brought word that the people of Garðaríki had begun referring to their king as Rurik ‘the Just’! This was a nickname Rurik was more than happy to be known by. His justice may sometimes be harsh on his enemies – but to his people he was always hard but fair.
And a short time later, there was more good news from home: the new Seer, Godi Styrbjörn, had completed the work Þorolfr had started. Ladoga had been brought to the light of Odin’s wisdom!
It would take him another week to formally complete his work there – after which he would be assigned to Toropets.
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority.I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now.
Mordva was a large realm – while Vladimir was subject to Rurik’s siege, Mari and Cumania had occupied sizable pieces of Varaka’s lands – without yet forcing him even close to the surrender table.
As the siege ground on, word came that the regent of the young Chief Hintsa of Häme had signed his country up to the anti-Rurik pact.
While Dyre of Konugarðr was estimated to be close to victory in its war against Turov [warscore of 93% - he must have won another field battle in the meantime, as no more counties had changed hands].
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May-June 881
May brought momentous news in the Norse world: King Björn Ironside, oldest son of Ragnar and King of mighty SviÞjod, had died at the age of 60. Not quietly in bed, but (fittingly) in battle against the Lotharingians! The death of Rurik's father-in-law brought the formal relationship between them to an end. Ironsides' son – Björn II – was definitely not the man his father was (there were rumours of cowardice and gluttony and he lacked respect within his own realm). But he would have to do the best he could in his wars with the Franks and other heathens of Western Europa.
In mid-May, the garrison of Vladimir surrendered without a fight: but this victory would not be nearly enough to bring Varaka to the bargaining table: Rurik would need to keep pressing on east to Obran Osh, and keep at it until he had made his opponent take enough notice to sue for peace and give up Vladimir.
While, back in Finland, Uusimaa once again sought safety in numbers with their fellow Finns.
Towards the end of May, with spring in the air, Rurik reached and invested Obran Osh. And, in doing so, discovered a sizeable Mordvin force lurking next door in Cheremisa. He actually hoped they would be rash enough to attack over the large river that separated them. But, just in case, he decided it would be prudent to summon his two most reliable vassals to join the war. It would take them some time to make it to the front, so they had best get marching now. He hoped they would both once again fulfil their oaths – it was not certain they would.
His faith was well rewarded: word came through at the beginning of June that both would send their levies to join the fight. This was just as well, as Rurik’s scouts reported that High Chief Varaka himself led the Mordvin army to the south-east. And he wasn’t foolish enough to make an opposed river crossing. Instead, he was heading to the north of Vladimir, to Gorodez: perhaps he aimed to seize that country back from Mari, which has occupied it at the start of their war? Either way, Rurik intended to see the siege through and not be distracted.
But Varaka was craftier than that: he did not tarry in Gorodez, but headed straight for Garðarikian territory – Sursdalar. A counter-siege? Or a flanking march? He had also cleverly (or luckily) put himself in between Rurik and his reinforcing allies. They would have to be careful they were not ambushed as they approached and defeated in detail.
The same day, news reached the king that the Estonians had joined the defensive pact against him – it was now gathering steam and becoming a significant deterrent.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
July-August 881
By 11 July, with a warm summer upon the land, Varaka’s intentions became clear: he marched to relieve Vladimir itself – probably the smartest action he could take. Rurik continued to stay the course in Obran Osh – and hope his allies would be able to evade the Mordvins and join him, as the number were a little too even for Rurik’s liking. The company from Belo Ozero had already been forced to take evasive action.
One week later and Varaka had begun his ploy to retake the initiative – could he overwhelm the smaller garrison in Vladimir before Rurik could finish in Obran Osh and relieve them?
The same day, Kaleva of Pohjanmaa wisely joined the pact – even as the perception of Rurik’s threat continued to recede. It seemed they had finally begun to wise up to his true intentions!
It took another month for Obran Osh to be taken – but it was. Again the defenders were starved out and Rurik lost no men in the exercise. With the Belo Ozero company forced to skirt around Vladimir and the Smolenskians inexplicably diverting south to Mordva itself (rather than heading to Obran Osh), Rurik was still days away from receiving his allied reinforcements. With the siege of Vladimir progressing rapidly, he decided to strike with what he had – a small numerical advantage – and ordered the attack to go in. He hoped one or both of his allies would be able to join up in time – and that he could either win, or at least hold out, until they did. Continued control of Vladimir was important for him to maintain the pressure on Varaka to yield, while a victory in the field would be a powerful incentive too. Of course, this also entailed risk – including potentially heavy casualties on his own levies. But battle called – and he must answer!
Karhu of Veps was the next Finn to join the pact.
Battle was joined on 28 August outside Vladimir – which still held on and should do now that its besiegers were distracted. The three divisions were fairly evenly matched and both leaders faced each other in the centre. Hrolfr had the Garðarikian right and Sverker the left. From the start, Rurik came under pressure, losing casualties and moral faster than his opponent. That wasn’t the plan!
Ch40 Q2: Disrupting Sieges.It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
More than three weeks of heavy fighting had almost seen Rurik’s centre division forced to flee the field: only the timely arrival of the men from Belo Ozero kept the centre from breaking [the morale shown there includes the boost from the reinforcements – it had been close to route before that]. On the left, Sverker was faring worse than his opponent too: despite the advantage in numbers, the enemy was prevailing in two out of the three divisions! Rurik was becoming very uneasy. The bright spot was Hrolfr – the flanking specialist and master tactician – on the Garðarikian right: his men had joined in melee with the enemy’s left, which looked like it might soon buckle. But would the Garðarikian centre be able to hold long enough for him to finish of the enemy in front of his and come to their rescue? This seemed doubtful.
Still the fighting raged, Rurik’s position getting more precarious by the day. Where were the Smolenskians? Would they make it in time? Could Hrolfr defeat the enemy’s left to smash into their centre and save the day? To increase Rurik’s frustration, over the next few days word came through that another two realms had pledged mutual support against him.
23 September proved a turning point in the battle: danger still existed, as Varaka continued to have the edge over Rurik in the centre, but Sverker had recovered on the left and had finally broken the enemy's right flank. At the same time, the enemy’s left flank also broke. All focus now fell on the centre. But by 29 September, Varaka still stubbornly resisted. Though now the toll finally started to tell on the Mordvins: with the combined weight of all three Garðarikian divisions on them, things had finally at least evened up in the centre.
The final blow came on 2 October – after more than a month of fighting. The Smolenskian company arrived and immediately added their weight to the centre, buoying its morale again and finally seeing off the persistent Varaka, who fled the field. After a week of pursuit, the victory was declared. The enemy had suffered more casualties in the end, but not by that many. Most of the Garðarikian losses came from Rurik’s personal levies. It had been a close-run thing – and Rurik thanked both the Gods and his lucky stars that he had sent the call to his allies when he did, And that they had answered. Had they not, the result may have been quite different.
With the enemy in rout and a war still to win, Rurik could not afford to rest his men in place – they would have to try to recover their morale on the march. [NB: have a look at the morale of Rurik’s centre without the addition of the allied morale contribution from the battle – they would surely have broken if not for their arrival - phew!]
Elsewhere, by now, Konugarðr had won their war with Turov and seized Minsk. And here is a map of the anti-Rurik defensive pact as it stood on 9 November 881.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Questions
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority.I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now.
Ch40 Q2: Disrupting Sieges.It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
Ch40 Q3: General Strategy and Tactics.And of course, general comments on any aspect of gameplay or narrative are always most welcome. For example, whether this drawn-out war to gain one de jure Garðaríki county was actually worth it, or (for those who were advocating a break from conquest for more raiding) has Rurik barked up the wrong tree here? Also, any obvious reasons why Rurik in the centre (a far superior war leader) should have consistently suffered from the poorer morale in that battle than his counterpart?
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
The battlefield at Vladimir, after the hard-fought victory. A grim place – though the losses were made a good deal more acceptable for it being a win. The price was many good men sent to Valhalla. Glorious for them perhaps - they were now carousing with their comrades and ancestors. But Rurik must deal with the aftermath: at least he now had his trusty allies by his side again.
An important victory, if a closer one that Rurik will have wanted.
No idea why the morale in the centre collapsed - perhaps bad luck with the dice rolls?
As for conversion, I don't think it matters all that much. It makes most sense to try and convert the more important places first from an rp perspective to my mind.
As for general strategy, you were going to end up fighting this war (probably), and it might always have gotten drawn out. To that end I think the question doesn't matter so much.
King Björn Ironside, oldest son of Ragnar and King of mighty SviÞjod, had died at the age of 60. Not quietly in bed, but (fittingly) in battle against the Lotharingians! The death of Rurik's father-in-law brought the formal relationship between them to an end. Ironsides' son – Björn II – was definitely not the man his father was (there were rumours of cowardice and gluttony and he lacked respect within his own realm). But he would have to do the best he could in his wars with the Franks and other heathens of Western Europa.
Well this is momentous. First off, it means sweden isnt going to hulk out like it does whenever the PC is outside western europe. Its also good because the more land they take from the franks, the more likely it is they go feudal and Christian (spit spit).
However, without the pressure constant from sweden, the franks tend to conquer most of norway, denmark and sweden in a hundred years. They will obvs convert as much as they can into catholics which makes your job harder. So mixed bag of results possible here.
Elsewhere, by now, Konugarðr had won their war with Turov and seized Minsk. And here is a map of the anti-Rurik defensive pact as it stood on 9 November 881.
Nothing too worrisome yet, just everyone who is justifiably scared you might conquer them within five years. If a big kingdom or rival gets involved, back down and grow tall for a bit.
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority.I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now
RP aside, core counties come first because you do not want your own personal lands to rebel. Vassal rebellions are funny, not threatening and can be assigned as punishments. But for cutting down rebel risk, esepcially cos later on Christianity has a habit of infecting your vassal lords, get your own holdings done first. Then whomever your most trusted guy is...or the furthest flung bit of your empire. Cos if only one tile connects you to christians or muslims, convert that and the surrounding duchy first to stop spread.
Ch40 Q2: Disrupting Sieges.It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
I think if a siege is interrupted for more than a day for any reason it resets. So someone flinging 100 guys at your 20 stack isnt going to be a problen. But an actual battle is. Its their way of simulating rallies and scouting parties and all the other things a defender can do to a siege camp whilst the army is out fighting.
Ch40 Q3: General Strategy and Tactics.And of course, general comments on any aspect of gameplay or narrative are always most welcome. For example, whether this drawn-out war to gain one de jure Garðaríki county was actually worth it, or (for those who were advocating a break from conquest for more raiding) has Rurik barked up the wrong tree here? Also, any obvious reasons why Rurik in the centre (a far superior war leader) should have consistently suffered from the poorer morale in that battle than his counterpart?
Luck and maybe a really heavy charge from someone on the ither aidw who has stats which cause troops to break...
Eh, any expansion is usually good so long as it makes the realm stronger or at least not weaker than it was before (thst is to say, going from controlling all of Iberia to controlling it and Menorca are fine. Doing the same but it being London instead is just going to cause a ton of problems). So long as you don't, say, focus on controlling the Med and Iberia and then decide to conquer a tiny part of russia for no reason, you should be fine. Cos really, what noob would do that in their own AAR game?.
As for conversion, I don't think it matters all that much. It makes most sense to try and convert the more important places first from an rp perspective to my mind.
This too. I think you just have to try to contain Christianity and all its offshoots in your realm because paganism does not survive it very well. At least...well, the new dlc might change thst somewhat but who knows?
Elsewhere, by now, Konugarðr had won their war with Turov and seized Minsk. And here is a map of the anti-Rurik defensive pact as it stood on 9 November 881.
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority.I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now.
this is a good approach and one i'd take especially with this mode of succession. better iron out the ones that would go to the heir for sure, the remaining is more fluid. i'm assuming you're going for the province with most holdings.
Ch40 Q2: Disrupting Sieges.It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
I think if a siege is interrupted for more than a day for any reason it resets. So someone flinging 100 guys at your 20 stack isnt going to be a problen. But an actual battle is. Its their way of simulating rallies and scouting parties and all the other things a defender can do to a siege camp whilst the army is out fighting.
Ch40 Q3: General Strategy and Tactics.And of course, general comments on any aspect of gameplay or narrative are always most welcome. For example, whether this drawn-out war to gain one de jure Garðaríki county was actually worth it, or (for those who were advocating a break from conquest for more raiding) has Rurik barked up the wrong tree here? Also, any obvious reasons why Rurik in the centre (a far superior war leader) should have consistently suffered from the poorer morale in that battle than his counterpart?
well, you don't have a better CB to use, so if there isn't anything in the future that might happen (for example with hordes, once you're past a certain population a very nice CB unlocks) then you might have to do these wars for single provinces. maybe you can forge titles? I'm not sure what could've been better. yes, raiding is good but will you raid until the end of the game? of course conquest is necessary. a research on what better cbs we can lay our hands on can be a good thing to invest time in, or maybe somebody here knows
about the battle, well the obvious thing would've been unit compositions but they're not really very different (in fact you seem to have better HI ratio). maybe one gets a bonus if he's the defender? i'm not really sure.
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority. I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now.
It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
And of course, general comments on any aspect of gameplay or narrative are always most welcome. For example, whether this drawn-out war to gain one de jure Garðaríki county was actually worth it, or (for those who were advocating a break from conquest for more raiding) has Rurik barked up the wrong tree here? Also, any obvious reasons why Rurik in the centre (a far superior war leader) should have consistently suffered from the poorer morale in that battle than his counterpart?
Military Folkmote – October 881 (a summary of advice from Chapter 40)
The war with Mordva continues, with a costly but important victory just won. With Rurik marching east to take enough of High Chief Varaka’s land to force him to yield up Vladimir to its rightful owner, he takes advice on the march about matters religious, military and diplomatic.
<Re death of Björn Ironside>: Well this is momentous. First off, it means sweden isnt going to hulk out like it does whenever the PC is outside western europe. Its also good because the more land they take from the franks, the more likely it is they go feudal and Christian (spit spit).
However, without the pressure constant from sweden, the franks tend to conquer most of norway, denmark and sweden in a hundred years. They will obvs convert as much as they can into catholics which makes your job harder. So mixed bag of results possible here.
Interesting: of course, I have no personal game experience of what may often tend to happen in this time period, so these general observations are broadly useful. I can hope that they will balance each other for a while anyway – until I can creep west in Scandinavia and try to reform the Germanic faith. And then the Sunset Invasion may arrive any time and turn everything on its head!
<Re anti-Rurik pact>: Nothing too worrisome yet, just everyone who is justifiably scared you might conquer them within five years. If a big kingdom or rival gets involved, back down and grow tall for a bit.
Indeed they are! As soon as one of those little birds drops out of the nest at the wrong time – chomp! “Hello, breakfast!”
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch40 Q1: Conversion Priority.I’ve assumed here it is best to convert the inner counties first, with my first priority being on the core counties of the Jarldom of Holmgarðr (who also have the largest demesne levy sizes). But do let Rurik know if he should be thinking otherwise. Of course, I’m aware that a reformed faith would make this work faster and easier, but that will have to wait for now.
As for conversion, I don't think it matters all that much. It makes most sense to try and convert the more important places first from an rp perspective to my mind.
This too. I think you just have to try to contain Christianity and all its offshoots in your realm because paganism does not survive it very well. At least...well, the new dlc might change thst somewhat but who knows?
Indeed. Will just plug away for now – I’m doing it mainly for RP reasons, also for the learning experience of going against the grain of the local culture and religion (some inspiration there from @Eurasia and his Road of Queens).
RP aside, core counties come first because you do not want your own personal lands to rebel. Vassal rebellions are funny, not threatening and can be assigned as punishments. But for cutting down rebel risk, esepcially cos later on Christianity has a habit of infecting your vassal lords, get your own holdings done first. Then whomever your most trusted guy is...or the furthest flung bit of your empire. Cos if only one tile connects you to christians or muslims, convert that and the surrounding duchy first to stop spread.
this is a good approach and one i'd take especially with this mode of succession. better iron out the ones that would go to the heir for sure, the remaining is more fluid. i'm assuming you're going for the province with most holdings.
Summary: seems like the core Jarldom first is the best strategy and makes sense for RP. I know I need to reform the religion before I can expect too much progress too quickly - and to be able to fight off Crusaders later.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch40 Q2: Disrupting Sieges.It certainly appears that any siege is interrupted if the attackers are themselves involved in a field battle. Does it reset the clock on the siege, or if the besiegers win and fight off the attack, does it resume where it left off? I didn’t think to check while the battle was continuing.
I think if a siege is interrupted for more than a day for any reason it resets. So someone flinging 100 guys at your 20 stack isnt going to be a problen. But an actual battle is. Its their way of simulating rallies and scouting parties and all the other things a defender can do to a siege camp whilst the army is out fighting.
Yes, though I think it’s not absolutely certain yet.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch40 Q3: General Strategy and Tactics.And of course, general comments on any aspect of gameplay or narrative are always most welcome. For example, whether this drawn-out war to gain one de jure Garðaríki county was actually worth it, or (for those who were advocating a break from conquest for more raiding) has Rurik barked up the wrong tree here? Also, any obvious reasons why Rurik in the centre (a far superior war leader) should have consistently suffered from the poorer morale in that battle than his counterpart?
An important victory, if a closer one that Rurik will have wanted.
No idea why the morale in the centre collapsed - perhaps bad luck with the dice rolls?
As for general strategy, you were going to end up fighting this war (probably), and it might always have gotten drawn out. To that end I think the question doesn't matter so much.
Yes, it saw their main army off and it will take them a long time to get back. Can make plenty of mischief in that time. I’ll remain mystified re the morale stuff, but at least it worked out well in the end.
<Re the morale problem in the battle of Vladimir>: Luck and maybe a really heavy charge from someone on the ither aidw who has stats which cause troops to break...
Eh, any expansion is usually good so long as it makes the realm stronger or at least not weaker than it was before (thst is to say, going from controlling all of Iberia to controlling it and Menorca are fine. Doing the same but it being London instead is just going to cause a ton of problems). So long as you don't, say, focus on controlling the Med and Iberia and then decide to conquer a tiny part of russia for no reason, you should be fine. Cos really, what noob would do that in their own AAR game?.
Heh. Scandinavia may become my Iberia. Then there are the Mongols to worry about: the game-load hints have been telling me to beware the Mongols the last few times I’ve loaded up. Is it trying to tell me something!?
well, you don't have a better CB to use, so if there isn't anything in the future that might happen (for example with hordes, once you're past a certain population a very nice CB unlocks) then you might have to do these wars for single provinces. maybe you can forge titles? I'm not sure what could've been better. yes, raiding is good but will you raid until the end of the game? of course conquest is necessary. a research on what better cbs we can lay our hands on can be a good thing to invest time in, or maybe somebody here knows
Will have a look at CBs again as things go on, but I looked at a lot last time and there was little else on offer now the Rus subjugation CB is gone and most of the de jure kingdom has been conquered.
about the battle, well the obvious thing would've been unit compositions but they're not really very different (in fact you seem to have better HI ratio). maybe one gets a bonus if he's the defender? i'm not really sure.
It was actually, it was really in the balance and a couple of classic ‘flank marches to the sound of the fighting’ saved the day – only just. Those ally rules are really pretty useful - and they managed to make it in the end without getting waylaid.
Well, thanks once again for the comments and pointers. The next session has been played through, but I’m out of town tomorrow and Friday, so I may be able to get the next update out on the weekend!
Heh. Scandinavia may become my Iberia. Then there are the Mongols to worry about: the game-load hints have been telling me to beware the Mongols the last few times I’ve loaded up. Is it trying to tell me something!?
It tells me to beware the mongols and i have a gigantic maritime empire as far away as possible from mongolia. For you, a russian esque kingdom looking to expand eastwards...you really do need to be careful. They aren't M2TW insane but pretty scary guys if you have territoy in asia or eastern eastern europe you want to keep. For me...i think ill try to stop any expansion of theirs into the west past russia but beyond that...I dont really care. Its actualy to my advantage to have only one big empire in the east.
You might want to havr fortress scandinavia built up and locked down by then though, just in case. Makes you pretty safe from sunset invasion and the mongols. Good for ships too, especially now they're adding more counties (most of it is coastline).
It tells me to beware the mongols and i have a gigantic maritime empire as far away as possible from mongolia. For you, a russian esque kingdom looking to expand eastwards...you really do need to be careful. They aren't M2TW insane but pretty scary guys if you have territoy in asia or eastern eastern europe you want to keep. For me...i think ill try to stop any expansion of theirs into the west past russia but beyond that...I dont really care. Its actualy to my advantage to have only one big empire in the east.
You might want to havr fortress scandinavia built up and locked down by then though, just in case. Makes you pretty safe from sunset invasion and the mongols. Good for ships too, especially now they're adding more counties (most of it is coastline).
The last few de jury Rus/Gardariki provinces this side of the Volga are the furthest east I have any plans of expanding in that direction. Then sit behind the rivers, fortify the border and my core counties, while expanding west and trying to lock down the Scandinavian holy sites to reform the religion.
I’ll try to keep the Catholics, Orthodox and Muslim holy warriors out/unprovoked as best I can, while raiding in between conquests while still tribal for the money and prestige to aid building. I’ll make any assessment about achieving the Empire of Rus in the more distant future for now: I think I’d better look to that more if/when the Mongols are checked (or have at least run their great expansion race). That’s a sketchy plan for now anyway, obviously never having played the game myself before to have a real feel of how these things tend to fall out in-game.
The last few de jury Rus/Gardariki provinces this side of the Volga are the furthest east I have any plans of expanding in that direction. Then sit behind the rivers, fortify the border and my core counties, while expanding west and trying to lock down the Scandinavian holy sites to reform the religion.
I’ll try to keep the Catholics, Orthodox and Muslim holy warriors out/unprovoked as best I can, while raiding in between conquests while still tribal for the money and prestige to aid building. I’ll make any assessment about achieving the Empire of Rus in the more distant future for now: I think I’d better look to that more if/when the Mongols are checked (or have at least run their great expansion race). That’s a sketchy plan for now anyway, obviously never having played the game myself before to have a real feel of how these things tend to fall out in-game.
There's a reason why EuIV tends to have Russia look very similar every single time no matter what happens, and it's usually because no one else can be bothered with the land. It's awful to try to traverse, lengthy, poor, empty, and far from anything important or useful. In CKII, Siberia is blocked off of course so the European bit of Russia isn't a bit more easily handled and set up but even so, it's some of the most boring and tedious sections of the map to invade or fight wars in. Even the AI struggles, and most civs there are almsot oure cavalry based. So I would find a close border to expand to, the rivers are a good target, then stop, turn around and go back to Europe because there is almost literally nothing out there for you in the east.
