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Thanks for the guidance in the questions Specialist290, I will do my collated responses in the ‘usual way’.
As for the Parthenon in Nashville: wow, I’d never heard of that - it does look pretty good. I know it’s not the Acropolis but it is a great tribute, built 210 years after the original was so sadly devastated. If ever I pass through there, I’ll take a look. You never know where your travels may take you!
Ch22 Q1: Influencing Elections.OK, now that I have, with the help of you my dear readers, obtained an elementary working knowledge of the nomination mechanics, I do have a supplementary question, as highlighted by the Chancellor. But I'm not game to play with it yet, as Rurik is not yet ready to abandon Helgi, even though his decision rests on a knife's edge. Should Rurik break and support one of his other sons instead, is there any interaction that allows him to directly seek to change another elector's vote (requests, calling in favours, threats etc)? Or is it just a passive process in that he must hope his change might influence others? My suspicion is the bulk of electors (his vassals) are in fact of Slavic religious persuasion so - despite their almost universal mild dislike for Helgi, most are likely to stick with him anyway. Especially if Rurik can't actively intervene to 'persuade' them.
Can't add much to what Specialist said honestly. I Will just tell the story of the time an Emperor with no sons Save for a one year old bastard managed to make him first in succession to then die of pneumonia. That is to this day one of my favourite moments- especially because then the boy ruled for seventy years expanding from Portugal to the borders of Rus. It's the reason why I like election succession (though from a game point of view primogeniture is the best).
Ch22 Q2: Betrothals. I haven’t got around to arranging any of these for the King’s younger children yet – deliberately so. Not sure yet which places I may want to have as allies and which I may need to attack, and the children are still mainly very young. But I will have to get to it at some point. I’m reasonably familiar with the ideas, advantages, etc for making these arrangements from reading AARs, but they are mainly set in France and England, a few hundred years later and with different legal setups, geographical circumstances and religious considerations. Any initial general or specific advice for Rurik at this stage would be welcome. He will be considering it while he is off on his latest raiding adventure.
Specialist gave the best answer again. Sadly however you can only marry your sons with pagans, which makes it really hard to find a good marriage for alliance. Still più can hunt per skills and traits using the browse characters option.
Gumarich recorded that all were amazed at the sight of this magnificent wonder of the ancient world. He wrote that he was very glad that it would be seen but not sacked on this expedition:
“I hope this great symbol of human advancement will stand unblemished for another 1,300 years as it has done so far. Surely no-one would be so short-sighted or lacking in culture and sense of history to ever use it for military purposes, compass its destruction nor put it in danger of such.”
It is well for him that Gumarich could not see that far into the future.
Yes, awful. I think it had been sacked and damaged a bit before 1687, even by the time the in-game Rurik would be seeing it from a distance now, but of course nothing like that terrible explosion. Which also killed a large number of people, sadly.
As per usual, will respond to the advice/comments later, for which, thanks.
Ch22 Q2: Betrothals.I haven’t got around to arranging any of these for the King’s younger children yet – deliberately so. Not sure yet which places I may want to have as allies and which I may need to attack, and the children are still mainly very young. But I will have to get to it at some point. I’m reasonably familiar with the ideas, advantages etc for making these arrangements from reading AARs, but they are mainly set in France and England, a few hundred years later and with different legal setups, geographical circumstances and religious considerations. Any initial general or specific advice for Rurik at this stage would be welcome. He will be considering it while he is off on his latest raiding adventure.
I think Könugarðr could be a useful ally. Judging from your map I don't think they are in the de jure kingdom of Rus (yet). Depending on what you want to do after founding that, they may or may not be in the way. (They are neither between you and the next coast, nor between you and the Norse holy sites, but they are in the de jure Empire of Russia.)
Marrying your children to theirs means you get a non aggression pact. It will end when they divorce (violently or not) or when the death of a ruler makes the married couple less relevant. (Helgi could probably make a non aggression pact out of his half brothers' marriages, but I don't think he has to. (edit: checking the wiki again, siblings marriages might still be compulsory NAPs. I don't know.)) The non aggression pact can be upgraded to an alliance, which means you can call them into your wars (like your tribal vassals) and they can call you too. I like having allies and i like having them near me, so they can actually help.
If you decide to marry them, you can either marry their son to your daughter or the other way around. If you marry your son to their daughter their children will be of your dynasty and in your court (or your son's court, after Rurik's death). That way you may end up with a chance to press their claims a few generations later. Marry your daughter to their son and the same might happen to you.
If you have a potential partner in mind for your sons, early betrothals will make sure you are not beaten to them. On the other hand a late betrothal means you can see her attributes and how many brothers and nephews stand between her and her rightful title. So it depends if you are more interested in the alliance or the heirs.
Ch22 Q1: Influencing Elections.OK, now that I have, with the help of you my dear readers, obtained an elementary working knowledge of the nomination mechanics, I do have a supplementary question, as highlighted by the Chancellor. But I'm not game to play with it yet, as Rurik is not yet ready to abandon Helgi, even though his decision rests on a knife's edge. Should Rurik break and support one of his other sons instead, is there any interaction that allows him to directly seek to change another elector's vote (requests, calling in favours, threats etc)? Or is it just a passive process in that he must hope his change might influence others? My suspicion is the bulk of electors (his vassals) are in fact of Slavic religious persuasion so - despite their almost universal mild dislike for Helgi, most are likely to stick with him anyway. Especially if Rurik can't actively intervene to 'persuade' them.
Ch22 Q2: Betrothals.I haven’t got around to arranging any of these for the King’s younger children yet – deliberately so. Not sure yet which places I may want to have as allies and which I may need to attack, and the children are still mainly very young. But I will have to get to it at some point. I’m reasonably familiar with the ideas, advantages etc for making these arrangements from reading AARs, but they are mainly set in France and England, a few hundred years later and with different legal setups, geographical circumstances and religious considerations. Any initial general or specific advice for Rurik at this stage would be welcome. He will be considering it while he is off on his latest raiding adventure.
For my "good" sons, the ones I am grooming for rule (this means the ones with good stats/traits), I always marry for stats & traits which most of the time overlap. If you can find a good Norse gal with genius trait just claim her for your children. The idiots I use to create NAPs if necessary and I have a habit of marrying idiots to idiots not to create a cute little idiot litter but I feel bad for somebody else who marries my idiot child.
In my last game (as the Yabguid Khagan) this strategy backfired as marrying my good sons to baseborn geniuses decreased their prestige by 400 while my idiot son married an idiot girl from a good dynasty and I suddenly realized he is first in line to inherit because when you are a horse lord the person from your clan with highest prestige inherits. That was a tense few years while i was trying to destroy the prestige of that idiot and boost my good sons while worrying I might die any time (70+ is really an old age for a guy who lives horseback and consumes too much meat & alcohol and not enough fibers).
But I still believe it is better to marry for stats & traits. How do those kids of your Norse neighbours look like?
For my "good" sons, the ones I am grooming for rule (this means the ones with good stats/traits), I always marry for stats & traits which most of the time overlap. If you can find a good Norse gal with genius trait just claim her for your children. The idiots I use to create NAPs if necessary and I have a habit of marrying idiots to idiots not to create a cute little idiot litter but I feel bad for somebody else who marries my idiot child.
In my last game (as the Yabguid Khagan) this strategy backfired as marrying my good sons to baseborn geniuses decreased their prestige by 400 while my idiot son married an idiot girl from a good dynasty and I suddenly realized he is first in line to inherit because when you are a horse lord the person from your clan with highest prestige inherits. That was a tense few years while i was trying to destroy the prestige of that idiot and boost my good sons while worrying I might die any time (70+ is really an old age for a guy who lives horseback and consumes too much meat & alcohol and not enough fibers).
But I still believe it is better to marry for stats & traits. How do those kids of your Norse neighbours look like?
Thanks. Short initial answer: ideal would be good stats + noble then, but that’s an ideal. But will have to settle for reality. I will have a look at likely matches in strategic realms in a coming episode.
Thanks. Short initial answer: ideal would be good stats + noble then, but that’s an ideal. But will have to settle for reality. I will have a look at likely matches in strategic realms in a coming episode.
In fact (having the trait genius, or if not that having the trait quick) + noble. the good trait brings good stats anyway but it's not the other way around and good stats are not passed on to kids while genius/quick might.
i always have a saved query for genius women which i run every few months to find a good concubine to father heirs from
Problem with arranged marriages is how important your own kid is. If you have a son who will inherit your position you want to wait till they are an adult and then find them a good wife who helps them where they are weak. You want to make sure that the wife they get is as close to matching their needs as possible.
If you have a bunch of useless kids then arranged marriages for bonding with other Realms is okay. Go wild. It does not matter if their wives grow up to be horrible - those kids are not important.
Military Folkmote of December 875 (a summary of advice from Chapter 22)
Military Folkmote of December 875 (a summary of advice from Chapter 22)
As Rurik is on Viking in Greece, he convenes a military folkmote with his key warriors and advisors. Fortunately for us, Gumarich was there to take notes. It was winter, for sure, but not the kind of winter they would be enduring back home. I think much of the general discussion, including our collective lamenting over the destruction of the Parthenon, has been addressed in responses and discussions.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch22 Q1: Influencing Elections.OK, now that I have, with the help of you my dear readers, obtained an elementary working knowledge of the nomination mechanics, I do have a supplementary question, as highlighted by the Chancellor. But I'm not game to play with it yet, as Rurik is not yet ready to abandon Helgi, even though his decision rests on a knife's edge. Should Rurik break and support one of his other sons instead, is there any interaction that allows him to directly seek to change another elector's vote (requests, calling in favours, threats etc)? Or is it just a passive process in that he must hope his change might influence others? My suspicion is the bulk of electors (his vassals) are in fact of Slavic religious persuasion so - despite their almost universal mild dislike for Helgi, most are likely to stick with him anyway. Especially if Rurik can't actively intervene to 'persuade' them.
1. Both I think. You can just passively watch as people switch sides (they do tend to support strong rulers they like who have chosen a good claim candidate) or you can just eliminate or bribe people into liking your guy more/not being around to vote otherwise.
1. There's no way to straight-up ask someone to vote for a particular candidate, but electors who like you will tend to follow your lead on voting if there aren't too many other factors pulling them in a different direction.
Other factors that seem to affect the vote, from my general observations of elective forms of inheritance(1):
•Electors will tend to vote for candidates they themselves like.
•Adult candidates are generally favored over children.
•Men are typically favored over women (when eligible)
•Claimants and those who would inherit claims (including but not limited to children of the current ruler) are typically favored over non-claimants. (This seems to be more in play with Feudal Elective than with Tanistry; I'm not sure how big a factor is in Elective Gavelkind, since cadet branches there tend to split off into realms of their own.)
•Electors typically (though not exclusively) favor candidates that share their religion and culture. (Not fully sure if this is a factor in and of itself, or if it just reflects the default opinion penalties for cross-cultural / cross-religious relationships.)
•Ambitious vassals will often vote for themselves (if eligible; usually not something you have to worry about with Tanistry or Elective Gavelkind, since by default all candidates come from the ruler's dynasty) or for "puppets" they stand a chance of pulling the strings for.
•The electorate as a whole tends to coalesce into one or more clear "voting blocs"; either nearly everyone lines up behind a clear favorite, or two or three (sometimes four) clear favorites tend to jockey for the lead (with occasional stubborn holdouts voting for themselves, or for somebody they simply really like but isn't that attractive an option for anyone else bringing up the rear). I think this might reflect that candidates who already have declared backers may get a slight amount of "pull" to make them stand out, but it's hard to conclusively prove.
(1) Small caveat: I'm less familiar with elective gavelkind specifically than I am with feudal elective and tanistry, but all of them share a few of the same guiding principles.
Very comprehensive listing of factors – thanks very much. I’m sure I will get to test some of this out in due course and it will be an interesting experiment (for all, I hope) to see how it plays out.
1. Can't add much to what Specialist said honestly. I Will just tell the story of the time an Emperor with no sons Save for a one year old bastard managed to make him first in succession to then die of pneumonia. That is to this day one of my favourite moments- especially because then the boy ruled for seventy years expanding from Portugal to the borders of Rus. It's the reason why I like election succession (though from a game point of view primogeniture is the best).
Ah, what a funny (humorous and peculiar) a game it can be!
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch22 Q2: Betrothals.I haven’t got around to arranging any of these for the King’s younger children yet – deliberately so. Not sure yet which places I may want to have as allies and which I may need to attack, and the children are still mainly very young. But I will have to get to it at some point. I’m reasonably familiar with the ideas, advantages etc for making these arrangements from reading AARs, but they are mainly set in France and England, a few hundred years later and with different legal setups, geographical circumstances and religious considerations. Any initial general or specific advice for Rurik at this stage would be welcome. He will be considering it while he is off on his latest raiding adventure.
2. Well in this era of the game, Hungary and a Frankish kingdom usually end up on top in Europe, provided the Spanish Muslims don't kill everyone. So Hungary and (probably) France or Germany (whichever wins that fight) would be safe choices. Getting involved with Britannia and picking a faction to unite the islands will provide a safe and increasingly powerful ally far away from your enemies reach (but as most vassals have coastline, everyone has a navy there so that's no problem). However, you would have to either conquer the place yourself or be really nice to an already existing kingdom and help them with every single war they go into to get that benefit. So perhaps instead try to make friends with a powerful Scandinavian realm and integrate yourself with them, since you'll probably end up expanding there anyway at some point (might as well up the possibility of personal unions and such).
I'm going to leave specific situational advice to others, but in general there are four main ways to play the marriage game, each of which has its advantages in particular situations:
•Marry for Stats: Half of your wife's Attribute scores are added to your ruler's personal Attribute scores and the score of the relevant Councilor to calculate the realm Attribute scores. (The exception is if -- as in Rurik's case incidentally -- the ruler's wife is also a Councilor, in which case you only get the benefit of that Attribute from her as a Councilor.)
•Marry for Traits: Certain congenital traits (Strong, Attractive, Quick / Genius) have a chance of being passed to a character's children or grandchildren. Some players will set up elaborate eugenics programs to ensure that these traits "breed true" in their line across generations. Conversely, there are also negative congenital traits (Weak, Ugly, Slow / Imbecile, plus a few others like Hunchback and Inbred that don't have "positive" counterparts) that are typically best avoided (unless you want to breed a line of twisted, misshapen idiots for your own perverse amusement... yes, there are players that do that, too).
•Marry for Alliances: Marrying your own close kin to the close kin of another ruler automatically gives you a Non-Aggression Pact, which can be useful if you want that little bit of extra breathing room to focus your efforts elsewhere. NAPs can be further upgraded to Alliances, which... well, need I say more?
•Marry for Claims: A ruler's children (and other eligible heirs in the line of succession) will inherit claims on their titles, which may be pressed just like anyone else's claims, and these claims can be further passed along to their own children in many circumstances. The AI is, however, programmed to be savvy to this, so it may sometimes take a little (*ahem*) "engineering" to ensure that your heir's claims can be pressed...
Once again, very comprehensive, yet concise and clear – my thanks! This makes sense in terms of my reflections on AARs read and the key elements in play. Sounds like all are valid at different times, while ‘dream’ matches would combine two or more aspects.
There is nothing I can add to Specialist's answers except to note that your choice of spouse for your children will be limited to potentials within your religius group.
2. Specialist gave the best answer again. Sadly however you can only marry your sons with pagans, which makes it really hard to find a good marriage for alliance. Still più can hunt per skills and traits using the browse characters option.
Agreed! Re the ‘pagan only’ restriction, this will be a limitation, but then again Rurik wants to keep the faith pure and ascendant, so it will be in-character for him. Will explore what is on offer later.
I think Könugarðr could be a useful ally. Judging from your map I don't think they are in the de jure kingdom of Rus (yet). Depending on what you want to do after founding that, they may or may not be in the way. (They are neither between you and the next coast, nor between you and the Norse holy sites, but they are in the de jure Empire of Russia.)
Marrying your children to theirs means you get a non aggression pact. It will end when they divorce (violently or not) or when the death of a ruler makes the married couple less relevant. (Helgi could probably make a non aggression pact out of his half brothers' marriages, but I don't think he has to. (edit: checking the wiki again, siblings marriages might still be compulsory NAPs. I don't know.)) The non aggression pact can be upgraded to an alliance, which means you can call them into your wars (like your tribal vassals) and they can call you too. I like having allies and i like having them near me, so they can actually help.
If you decide to marry them, you can either marry their son to your daughter or the other way around. If you marry your son to their daughter their children will be of your dynasty and in your court (or your son's court, after Rurik's death). That way you may end up with a chance to press their claims a few generations later. Marry your daughter to their son and the same might happen to you.
If you have a potential partner in mind for your sons, early betrothals will make sure you are not beaten to them. On the other hand a late betrothal means you can see her attributes and how many brothers and nephews stand between her and her rightful title. So it depends if you are more interested in the alliance or the heirs.
Yes, checked quickly and you’re right about the de jure Rus, of course. Though historically, it didn’t take long for the Rurikids to move on Kiev/Könugarðr, but that would as you say be if Rus were pursued. They could indeed be a good option and will have to be seriously considered. Some other great tips in there too, thanks.
For my "good" sons, the ones I am grooming for rule (this means the ones with good stats/traits), I always marry for stats & traits which most of the time overlap. If you can find a good Norse gal with genius trait just claim her for your children. The idiots I use to create NAPs if necessary and I have a habit of marrying idiots to idiots not to create a cute little idiot litter but I feel bad for somebody else who marries my idiot child.
In my last game (as the Yabguid Khagan) this strategy backfired as marrying my good sons to baseborn geniuses decreased their prestige by 400 while my idiot son married an idiot girl from a good dynasty and I suddenly realized he is first in line to inherit because when you are a horse lord the person from your clan with highest prestige inherits. That was a tense few years while i was trying to destroy the prestige of that idiot and boost my good sons while worrying I might die any time (70+ is really an old age for a guy who lives horseback and consumes too much meat & alcohol and not enough fibers).
But I still believe it is better to marry for stats & traits. How do those kids of your Norse neighbours look like?
Thanks. Short initial answer: ideal would be good stats + noble then, but that’s an ideal. But will have to settle for reality. I will have a look at likely matches in strategic realms in a coming episode.
In fact (having the trait genius, or if not that having the trait quick) + noble. the good trait brings good stats anyway but it's not the other way around and good stats are not passed on to kids while genius/quick might.
i always have a saved query for genius women which i run every few months to find a good concubine to father heirs from
Problem with arranged marriages is how important your own kid is. If you have a son who will inherit your position you want to wait till they are an adult and then find them a good wife who helps them where they are weak. You want to make sure that the wife they get is as close to matching their needs as possible.
If you have a bunch of useless kids then arranged marriages for bonding with other Realms is okay. Go wild. It does not matter if their wives grow up to be horrible - those kids are not important.
Always good to have corroboration and thanks for tuning in again!
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Once again, my hearty thanks for your advice and comments. Soon now to the next period as we see how the raid in Greece unfolds – while the bizarre and complicated murder plots forming within Holmgarðr would put the Byzantines to shame. As a very special personal report to King Rurik makes clear.
Chapter 23: Shadow and Sunlight (27 December 875 – 5 March 876)
Chapter 23: Shadow and Sunlight (27 December 875 – 5 March 876)
Previously, on Blut und Schlacht … the mutterings of conspiracy about Rurik’s wife continue, but there is more lurking in the murky depths beneath the surface in Holmgarðr than this. The King has embarked upon his second major raid and finds the warmer waters and rich lands of Greece to his liking. He ponders the future matrimonial plans for his young children and whether he may one day change his vote for the succession if his son refuses to see the light of Odin but makes no decisions as yet.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
December 875
Just before the year 875 CE ended, on 27 December Gumarich recorded the arrival of a mysterious, hooded figure to visit Rurik in the small Greek-style villa he is using for his accommodations. But we have to rely on Rurik's private journal to discover what transpired, as he met his visitor alone.
A mysterious visitor.
“My King,” says one of his guards at the door. “You have a visitor.” He ushers the small, compact figure into the room. At first, Rurik does not recognise his wife and Spymaster, but it becomes obvious as she throws back her hood.
“My husband,” she smiles. “It is so good to see you again.”
“Ingjerðr, it has been many months.” Rurik cannot keep the coolness from his voice or manner. “We have much to talk about.”
“Ah, I see the matter of Helgi still sits between us. May we sit? It was a stormy passage in a small boat from Constantinople.”
Rurik nods silently and they both sit on low divans.
“I will not deny my heart’s desire to protect our children – legitimate children – and our shared Germanic faith. What would happen to them in a kingdom run by a cruel, craven heathen follower of the Slavic Gods, under the unleashed ‘mercies’ of the majority Slavic vassals and common people? It would be a disaster not just for our own dear children, but for all you stand for and for all the good Norse men and women who have settled in our new homeland. I did not come from far Munsö to join you as Queen, only to see myself and our children sacrificed to danger and probable death. Perhaps, when I mentioned my concerns to friendly ears, they took my fears too literally and aggressively. But I cannot disavow them.”
Ingjerðr raises her pretty face proudly to look Rurik squarely in the eye. “I see too you have not relieved me of my post these last months. Perhaps you share some of my concerns, though I know you do like Helgi well enough – though he loves you more than you him, I think. You are also the king of your realm as well as a father. What does your heart tell you?”
It is not often that Rurik drops his gaze from another – but this is one such occasion. Her arrow has struck its mark unerringly. “Part of me hates itself for having these thoughts, but I can’t deny them. I am, as these Greeks would say, caught between Scylla and Charybdis.”
Being between Scylla and Charybdis is an idiom deriving from Greek mythology, meaning "having to choose between two evils". Several other idioms, such as "on the horns of a dilemma", "between the devil and the deep blue sea", and "between a rock and a hard place" express similar meanings.
Scylla and Charybdis were mythical sea monsters noted by Homer; Greek mythology sited them on opposite sides of the Strait of Messina between Sicily and the Italian mainland. Scylla was rationalized as a rock shoal (described as a six-headed sea monster) on the Italian side of the strait and Charybdis was a whirlpool off the coast of Sicily. They were regarded as a sea hazard located close enough to each other that they posed an inescapable threat to passing sailors; avoiding Charybdis meant passing too close to Scylla and vice versa. According to Homer, Odysseus was forced to choose which monster to confront while passing through the strait; he opted to pass by Scylla and lose only a few sailors, rather than risk the loss of his entire ship in the whirlpool.
The tale resonates strongly with a seafaring people such as the Norse.
“An apposite metaphor, my dear Rury,” says Ingjerðr, her voice and posture softening. “I have no real personal grudge against Helgi, though I like him not. His personal ways and his obstinate clinging to the false Slav Gods tell against him, but it is what he represents: danger to me, my children, the realm and our religion. You know Odysseus eventually had to choose, or disaster would surely strike. What will you do? Will you let me help you?”
Rurik is silent for a short time. The tell-tale (to his wife) signs of torment and indecision play across his usually impassive face. “I am afraid I will have to choose as he did: taking our ship past the whirlpool of Scylla and losing one – Helgi – rather than hazarding the rocks of Charybdis and losing all – our children and our religion in the land of Rus. But it tears at my mind and I cannot yet bring myself to act on it. I seek Odin’s wisdom on this, but it yet evades me.”
“Then may I bring you Freya’s: you must be strong in this and protect the majority of your children, who need your protection, and see to your realm and the interests of the Gods. A time may come that you will need to choose and swing the other electors to our eldest, Eilif, for the succession.”
Ingjerðr pauses at this point. “But that may not work; and I know you cannot nor would not take part in any covert – or, ah – clandestine action against Helgi. And I know you cannot help but dislike me for suggesting it. But continue to leave me to safeguard your interests as Spymaster. Say nothing to me about any action I may or may not take and I will say nothing of it to you. But we may need more than one way to avoid the rocks of Charybdis.”
Rurik cannot bring himself to say anything. He simply looks at a point on the wall past Ingjerðr’s shoulder. His lack of an answer tells her all she needs to know.
“My husband, it has, as you say, been many months since we last saw each other. I have some very interesting news to impart, but that can wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, the night is cool. May there be some way we can warm it …?”
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
The Queen-Spymaster does indeed reveal a tawdry and internecine struggle going on in the court of Chief Svetozar Slovensky of Luki! Rurik cannot help but chuckle as she unfolds the tangled plots. One thing is clear: poor Tverdimir Dobrozhirovich should be afraid, very afraid! [What started as one of those simple little pop-up messages turned into a sleuthing opportunity and a chance to practice the unpacking of complicated murder plots, trying to find a motive.]
Ingjerðr had received a simple message: Feodora - Svetozar’s wife and Chieftess of Luki – wanted to kill her nephew by marriage, Tverdimir. It had about two chances in three of succeeding. Referring to her notes, she realised this was the same Tverdimir that an earlier – and still extant - plot was targeting. Yaroslava (Tverdimir’s step-mother, as it turned out) has another and very powerful plot going on against poor Tverdimir! And there is another loosely linked plot, on Svyatogor Dobrozhirovich: Tverdimir’s brother – and co-conspirator in Yarolslava’s plot to kill him!
“This is too much for me to follow, wife! They make our troubles look simple by comparison.”
“Let me explain a little more.”
“First, Feodora’s new plot.” The Queen manages to keep an impassive face as she begins to explain matters that strike a little close to home. “She has two young children by her husband, Chief Svetozar. But his older son Svyatogor was heir and there was another son before hers might inherit. Dobrozhir Samovladovich, Svetozar’s brother, seems well isolated from succession. And Tverdimir is only his second son. While Feodora by all accounts thinks reasonably well of him. However, people hold her to be possessed by evil spirits – perhaps this instability of mind or soul motivates her to strike and Tverdimir just happens to be a handy target.”
“Mystifying, wife. These Slovenskys are indeed a turbulent lot.”
“It gets better, husband. Look at this scroll and I will try my best to explain the second, longer standing, more powerful and perhaps logical plot on Tverdimir.”
“Yarolslava is Doborzhir’s second wife. She has a young son by him – Samovlad. Dobrozhir has no title, so no heir nominated, but does have three claims which he could – however unlikely – one day be in a position to act upon. Yaroslava does not dislike his second son but may see him as one potential rival to her own son in years to come. And she is a master of the shadows and deceitful, so may just be itching to use her skills.”
“She has managed to persuade Svyatogor, Tverdimir’s older brother, to join her plot. Perhaps he also sees an opportunity to rid himself of a potential rival for a potential inheritance. Svyatogor, like his father, is a most underwhelming character – perhaps Yaroslava found him easy to persuade. It is a very strong plot, and it is surprising it has not already succeeded.”
“They are a sorry lot, these Slovenskys of Luki. And you said there was more?”
“Yes, finally, Svyatogor is himself the target of a murder plot – from another Slovensky, Sviatopolk of Belo Ozero, heir to Chief Vsemil. For some reason unknown to me, he wishes his distant relative dead.”
“My Gods!” exclaimed Rurik, in amazement. “I’m glad these Slovenskys turn their attentions on each other – and not us! What do you advise, Ingjerðr?”
“We could call on them to stop – but I wonder why we would bother? These Slovenskys infest the realm as a plague. I see value in letting them winnow this unwanted crop themselves. I advise we stay well out of it and let things take their course.” As well she might – such a line of advice of course suited her own interests.
“Very well, I agree with you. Let these Slav heathens carry out their vendettas – fewer of them for me to worry about later.”
“That concludes my report, husband. I must be back to Constantinople before I am missed. My work there proceeds very well and I hope to have yet more good news on the secrets of Byzantium. I hope to serve you well in matters of motherhood, intrigue and research, in all ways, Rurik. Until we are able to meet again, I bid you farewell. Be wary of Charybdis, my love!”
With that, she was gone again. Rurik’s eye lingered on her retreating figure as she made her way to her boat for the return voyage and her mission in Constantinople. What have I done, thought Rurik to himself, and where will this all lead?
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
January 876
The New Year began in Greece as the last had ended – Rurik’s raid continued to fill the treasure chests, but not with vast sums. The walls of Athens would stand for many months yet and Rurik could not wait for that to get to the juicier takings, and the countryside had yielded all it could for now. On 5 January, orders were given to strike camp and head north-west, to the county of Demetrias.
On 10 January, word arrived from Rurik’s scouts that the levies of Doux Pantherios had begun to muster in Demetrias and Hellas. But the numbers were not such as to worry Rurik, who vowed to brush aside any who stood between him and the loot. Four days later, his men swept into Demetrias and fought an easy and one-sided battle before the ancient city of Thebes – the enemy ran almost as soon as contact was made. The same day, word came from the Queen that she had again succeeded in prising technological secrets from the Byzantines. She was certainly making herself useful!
The next day, back in Nygarðr, improvements in the design of keeps and advances in popular customs were made.
Victory over the local levies was complete by 21 January, with only two casualties for Rurik’s men. Only a little prestige came of this, but at present every little bit counts.
The looting of Demetrias started immediately. A similar amount of gold should be available as from Atheniai.
While looting parties spread out in the countryside, Rurik’s siegemaster assessed the situation around Thebes. The fortification level in the city was similar to Athens, though it had considerably fewer defenders to man it. The situation would be monitored while the country was scoured for treasure.
Rurik found the city of Thebes strongly defended, though not so formidably as Athens had been.
February 876
As the looting progresses, Rurik receives assistance from within the besieged city: perhaps this may put the city within their reach after all? They will continue to keep an eye on that and other developments – and, most importantly, the calendar.
March 876
By 5 March, the countryside of Demetrias had been stripped of all its available treasure, with the loot being sent back to the ships for safekeeping. And even more good news from the Queen: hot on the heels of her last success, she has yet again secured advanced technology from Constantinople! Rurik is now glad he has kept her on at the post of Spymaster.
The options open for a next first level advance in both economic and cultural developments have been identified. The decision is reserved as to whether one each of these should be backed, or the research held back for a more useful second level advance in one or both areas.
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost?
The treachery in Thebes has hurried the siege progress along somewhat, but there is still plenty of work to be done. The siegemaster calculates it could still take more than six and a half months to reduce Thebes without any other intervention – a long time to wait. The ships are now filled to 1/10th of their capacity of loot.
The pickings are rich, but is it enough, quickly enough?
A similar amount of easy county loot is available in Doux Pantherios’ third province of Hellas. That is one alternative. The fleet would need to reposition on the other side of the Peloponnese to continue loading the treasure.
The alternative to continuing with the siege of Thebes or heading towards Hellas for another plunder before moving on would be to cut and run now, reboard the ships and sail for other targets. This map of estimated riches in the general area shows the richest pickings. Genoa, Venice and Rome are all tempting in Italia. Sardinia and Tunis are other options, and of course the rich Byzantine provinces to the east – though they may be better targets on the way back, in case the ships have any room left in them on the return voyage.
Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Questions
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost? Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Another episode of the Rurikid Chronicle ends, with Rurik and his raiders standing before the gates of Thebes, deciding what they will do next.
As Rurik ponders his next step, he receives a sealed package from Gumarich. Among the loot gathered from the countryside of Demetrias is a map of the island city of Venice. Is this a sign from the Gods? Or just a coincidence?
He gathers his trusted officers and confidants around him and asks them for their views ...
I have to say that I love the scene where Rurik and Ingjerðr are puzzling out the intrigues in the Slovensky domains. I've always been fond of "whodunit" stories, and untangling the motives of the perpetrators like that based on the clues available is a fun exercise
I'm also enjoying the little "side panels" about history and culture as well, and the way you're able to weave their subjects into the narrative. Scylla and Charybdis is indeed an apt metaphor for the situation between Rurik and Helgi.
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost?
As I've said before, I've never really had a great need to "bank" tech points unless I'm dead-set on getting a particular tech ahead of time for one reason or another. Of the available options, I'd pick Trade Practices (allows you to build Ports on coastal provinces; for the present you'll get much more money from raiding than from temple taxes) and Noble Customs (you need to get this to unlock the "Feudal" option for detribalizing anyway). You've made enough progress on the other two that they should come to you naturally within the next few months or years anyway, so it's not a huge worry.
Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
Definitely a "No" on option A; you don't want to sit around sieging down holdings on a raid unless the returns are greater than what you could pillage from other territories in that same amount of time, and castles are typically pretty terrible in that regard compared to cities and temples. Otherwise, the choice comes down mostly to personal preference.
As for the available options for raiding further west: Your instincts are pretty much spot on -- Merchant Republics generally make for good raiding targets precisely because they're fantastically wealthy and have cities for primary holdings, which don't take nearly as long to siege unless / until they've been upgraded substantially. One thing to be wary of there is retinue armies; they shouldn't be too worrisome this early on, but each Patrician house can usually build a pretty substantial force of their own, and if you hit the capital they'll all be hostile to you (since technically the patrician's mansion pseudo-holdings are all in the capital if the family doesn't have any landed holdings of its own).
Rome is also a fun option, both for pragmatic reasons (it's primary holding is a Temple, and sacking those both takes relatively little time and gives Norse a small Moral Authority bonus, and it tends to be fairly rich in general) and because there's always a small chance you can capture and eventually blót the Pope, which is sort of considered a "lifetime achievement" when playing Norse
Given those choices on techs my default would go for Noble Customs and Improved Keeps, as much for rp reasons as anything else - I figure a "chief" would be more interested in "noble" customes basically, and building bigger forts. Though I suppose here Trade Practises might make rp sense as well due to the raiding.
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost?
It takes too long to get to lvl 2 to make it worth it, go for the lvl 1s you don't have in a column. Noble customs and improve keeps are the best two options there (to ensure your family stay in power), but construction, military organisation, ship building and legalism are also vital if you want to actually expand and get a rich kingdom going.
Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
Given those choices on techs my default would go for Noble Customs and Improved Keeps, as much for rp reasons as anything else - I figure a "chief" would be more interested in "noble" customes basically, and building bigger forts. Though I suppose here Trade Practises might make rp sense as well due to the raiding.
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost?
Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
I would go for c., aiming at Venice first, it's usually the richest. Also, by the map what you point as Genoa is in fact Pisa (if Genoa conquered Pisa then that explains it). Not that it changes much but at least the decency of knowing who you are pillaging, good sir. Rome is a good shot too, but it's more dangerous.
Also I would love to know what happened to Genoa to turn it into the reddest red on the map.
Yes, it's worth, and nobility first, it just makes more sense over the other options of its category.
I would go for c., aiming at Venice first, it's usually the richest. Also, by the map what you point as Genoa is in fact Pisa (if Genoa conquered Pisa then that explains it). Not that it changes much but at least the decency of knowing who you are pillaging, good sir. Rome is a good shot too, but it's more dangerous.
Also I would love to know what happened to Genoa to turn it into the reddest red on the map.
Ah, thanks, I should have checked that better re Genoa - haven’t yet done the detailed check over there yet. Will be doing so soon. Maybe someone else got a similar idea?
Great update though that plot revealed by his wife was Byzantine indeed. I reckon on the raiding head for richer pastures out west.
Re the tech advances that’s not something I’ve ever set my spymasters to do so can’t really comment on its uses. I usually set mine to root out rebellious or seditious vassals.
Military Folkmote of 5 March 876 (a summary of advice from Chapter 23)
Military Folkmote of 5 March 876 (a summary of advice from Chapter 23)
In early march 876 CE, Rurik remained on Viking in Greece and convened another military folkmote. Its principle purpose was to decide whether to stay raiding in Greece or to head to the ships and further west – hopefully to even richer pastures.
I have to say that I love the scene where Rurik and Ingjerðr are puzzling out the intrigues in the Slovensky domains. I've always been fond of "whodunit" stories, and untangling the motives of the perpetrators like that based on the clues available is a fun exercise
I'm also enjoying the little "side panels" about history and culture as well, and the way you're able to weave their subjects into the narrative. Scylla and Charybdis is indeed an apt metaphor for the situation between Rurik and Helgi.
Thank you both! I thought it was a good learning point for me, and as you say an interesting little sub-plot was revealed by poking around a bit in the ugly underbelly of internecine Slovensky plotting. Even worse than those Rurikids!
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch23 Q1: Tech Advances.The advice of the hive mind is sought on these options – worth filling out all the level one techs, or should we be starting to save the 220-odd points many of the next level will cost?
As I've said before, I've never really had a great need to "bank" tech points unless I'm dead-set on getting a particular tech ahead of time for one reason or another. Of the available options, I'd pick Trade Practices (allows you to build Ports on coastal provinces; for the present you'll get much more money from raiding than from temple taxes) and Noble Customs (you need to get this to unlock the "Feudal" option for detribalizing anyway). You've made enough progress on the other two that they should come to you naturally within the next few months or years anyway, so it's not a huge worry.
Given those choices on techs my default would go for Noble Customs and Improved Keeps, as much for rp reasons as anything else - I figure a "chief" would be more interested in "noble" customes basically, and building bigger forts. Though I suppose here Trade Practises might make rp sense as well due to the raiding.
It takes too long to get to lvl 2 to make it worth it, go for the lvl 1s you don't have in a column. Noble customs and improve keeps are the best two options there (to ensure your family stay in power), but construction, military organisation, ship building and legalism are also vital if you want to actually expand and get a rich kingdom going.
Re the tech advances that’s not something I’ve ever set my spymasters to do so can’t really comment on its uses. I usually set mine to root out rebellious or seditious vassals.
I’ve been happy so far to use Ingjerðr on research, as none of the other tasks have been that pressing so far and Holmgarðr is pretty backward and doesn’t yet seem to be generating much learning, so I figure this is a good way to boost it – and the Queen has been quite successful so far too, I reckon. If an urgent need for one of the other missions arises, she can be brought back in a trice.
ᚔ ᚱᚢᚱᛁ ᚲᛁᛞ ᚔ
Ch23 Q2: Raiding Options.So, this is more a request by Rurik of his commanders for tactical advice on the raiding options, as set out: a) continue to besiege Thebes (unlikely); b) quickly raid Hellas before heading off for richer pastures; or c) just head to the boats and go west. In combination with that decision, of the targets on offer (and without any further information provided on the state of each location) and bearing in mind previous advice, any thoughts on a specific target? My first thoughts are Venice or Genoa as the next major target, whether either a) or b) may be chosen or not. Of course, we’d want a final recon before landing in any of the locations.
Definitely a "No" on option A; you don't want to sit around sieging down holdings on a raid unless the returns are greater than what you could pillage from other territories in that same amount of time, and castles are typically pretty terrible in that regard compared to cities and temples. Otherwise, the choice comes down mostly to personal preference.
As for the available options for raiding further west: Your instincts are pretty much spot on -- Merchant Republics generally make for good raiding targets precisely because they're fantastically wealthy and have cities for primary holdings, which don't take nearly as long to siege unless / until they've been upgraded substantially. One thing to be wary of there is retinue armies; they shouldn't be too worrisome this early on, but each Patrician house can usually build a pretty substantial force of their own, and if you hit the capital they'll all be hostile to you (since technically the patrician's mansion pseudo-holdings are all in the capital if the family doesn't have any landed holdings of its own).
Rome is also a fun option, both for pragmatic reasons (it's primary holding is a Temple, and sacking those both takes relatively little time and gives Norse a small Moral Authority bonus, and it tends to be fairly rich in general) and because there's always a small chance you can capture and eventually blót the Pope, which is sort of considered a "lifetime achievement" when playing Norse
I would go for c., aiming at Venice first, it's usually the richest. Also, by the map what you point as Genoa is in fact Pisa (if Genoa conquered Pisa then that explains it). Not that it changes much but at least the decency of knowing who you are pillaging, good sir. Rome is a good shot too, but it's more dangerous.
Also I would love to know what happened to Genoa to turn it into the reddest red on the map.
Thanks all – again, pretty conclusive there and it matches my own thoughts. We’ll see whether Rurik goes straight there or hops over to Hellas, pillages that then jumps onto the repositioned boats and away.
