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Terraferma

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Firstly, I didn't vote DNVP, (so technically, not for Hindenburg) and secondly to answer your question, I don't believe the best way to save German democracy is to move it backwards; I believe that a move towards a republic was a move backwards, and sharply so - I've always believed that. Despite this, my conscience forbade me from voting DNVP in the past due to the... unpalatable aftertaste of some of their less-than-savoury policies (by which I mean all of them), and so I quietly let the monarchist issue drop until von Hindenburg's recent ursurpation of German democracy thrust it back into the forefront of my political consciousness once more.

So yes, I will happily sacrifice this republic on the altar of the gods of German democracy - the only alternative is to let them die.
By handing the power to Hindenburg by voting yes to the referendum? By giving unlimited freedom to one man you hope to preserve German democracy? You sacrifice more than you realize. Then again thats if it plays out that way with the update tomorrow, since it be anyone's guess.
 

ThaHoward

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By handing the power to Hindenburg by voting yes to the referendum? By giving unlimited freedom to one man you hope to preserve German democracy? You sacrifice more than you realize. Then again thats if it plays out that way with the update tomorrow, since it be anyone's guess.
Well he's too blinded by the his wet dream of a monarchy. Only shows us how "liberal" he really is. And for some reason henactually believe that he is saving democracy.

Of course if Hindenburg had proposed the new constitution first, and then let the Reichstag,,Bundestag and the people vote over it, it would be very different. But voting on whenever he should have unliminated power or not to do what he want with the constitutioin is just extremely foolish. But fortuantely the German people were like, extremely split :p 50/50. Yeah very well. So hopefully the good old liberals can chip in to moderate the DNVP.
 

99KingHigh

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Well he's too blinded by the his wet dream of a monarchy. Only shows us how "liberal" he really is. And for some reason henactually believe that he is saving democracy.
German Democracy can not sustain, for it is bound to serve as a transitional stage into the ideals of Socialism and Communism. If the structural formation of Germany is not reverted into a constitutional monarchical complex, where democratic institutions persist, then the democracy is bound to become its own contradiction - and mold into a radical and undemocratic entity.
 

ThaHoward

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German Democracy can not sustain, for it is bound to serve as a transitional stage into the ideals of Socialism and Communism. If the structural formation of Germany is not reverted into a constitutional monarchical complex, where democratic institutions persist, then the democracy is bound to become its own contradiction - and mold into a radical and undemocratic entity.
And you and I will be cast out because we happen to be Jews :)
 

99KingHigh

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And you and I will be cast out because we happen to be Jews :)
My friend, you know as well as any that the Jewish Mothers Alliance (aka. The New World Order) would never allow such a thing.
 

ThaHoward

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My friend, you know as well as any that the Jewish Mothers Alliance (aka. The New World Order) would never allow such a thing.
Don't give your friends in the DNVP and DAP ideas now! I hope your parents and your family are ashamed of seeing you cooperating with those who want us gone, over personal satification..
 

99KingHigh

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Don't give your friends in the DNVP and DAP ideas now! I hope your parents and your family are ashamed of seeing you cooperating with those who want us gone, over personal satification..
Or perhaps the JMA - has planted me within the DNVP - and now has successfully made my rise as the premier DNVP nut more Jewish friendly.
 

ThaHoward

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Or perhaps the JMA - has planted me within the DNVP - and now has successfully made my rise as the premier DNVP nut more Jewish friendly.
Looks more like you're the usual Jew hater who try to discredit us and are "proving" that is a Jewish conspiracy :p
 

99KingHigh

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Looks more like you're the usual Jew hater who try to discredit us and are "proving" that is a Jewish conspiracy :p
Pff.

I choose to accept the conspiracy as a Jew. Gives me more power over these puny gentiles...

Power I can use...for a Jewish Kaiser!
 

Scrapknight

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Firstly, I didn't vote DNVP, (so technically, not for Hindenburg) and secondly to answer your question, I don't believe the best way to save German democracy is to move it backwards; I believe that a move towards a republic was a move backwards, and sharply so - I've always believed that. Despite this, my conscience forbade me from voting DNVP in the past due to the... unpalatable aftertaste of some of their less-than-savoury policies (by which I mean all of them), and so I quietly let the monarchist issue drop until von Hindenburg's recent ursurpation of German democracy thrust it back into the forefront of my political consciousness once more.

So yes, I will happily sacrifice this republic on the altar of the gods of German democracy - the only alternative is to let them die.
When a liberal tolerates an unelected executive in a country where there is one, he might be called a pragmatist.
When a "liberal" wants to move back to an unelected executive in a Republic, he can only be called a reactionary.

Your statement seems to imply that you feel that the Republic is less democratic than the Kaiserreich was. I sincerely hope I am mistaken, as that statement is completely and utterly absurd. By your logic, a country with a Kaiser where only nobles could vote is more democratic than a republic where everyone can vote because the former is apparently less easily subverted.

You are welcome to believe as you like, Herr Tanzhang, but if you purport to be a democrat, you are wrong.
 

ThaHoward

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When a liberal tolerates an unelected executive in a country where there is one, he might be called a pragmatist.
When a "liberal" wants to move back to an unelected executive in a Republic, he can only be called a reactionary.

Your statement seems to imply that you feel that the Republic is less democratic than the Kaiserreich was. I sincerely hope I am mistaken, as that statement is completely and utterly absurd. By your logic, a country with a Kaiser where only nobles could vote is more democratic than a republic where everyone can vote because the former is apparently less easily subverted.

You are welcome to believe as you like, Herr Tanzhang, but if you purport to be a democrat, you are wrong.
Yes he think so. He say that the Kaiserreich was more democratic than the Republic and that the Republic were a step back. You see, the most of the FVP were never truly liberals.
 

Tommy4ever

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The Republic is evil, the Republic is death
1920-1925

1920 will go down along with the years 1869, 1887 and 1898 as one of the most significant dates in German history. In that year the Weimar Republic was to be condemned to the depths of history, the Free People’s Party that had dominated its governance would cease to exist and a swathe of reforms would be put in place that were to play a major role in the turmoil of the 1920s.


With a strong Anti-Republican majority within the Reichstag, the bitter business of finding a compromise between the Monarchist DZP, the DNVP and the DAP enveloped the government. The agreements between the three parties resulted in the infamous Imperial Act of February 1920. In the face of vicious protests from the Left, including violent demonstrations in many cities, the Papen’s government proclaimed a new German Empire – the Third Reich. Beyond a change of name and a resurgence of monarchist sentiment the Imperial Act actually changed shockingly little. The aristocracy were returned their titles (although neither the properties nor political privileges they had lost in 1898). The former Kaiser Wilhelm II was invited to return from exile and assume the title King of Prussia – his return to Berlin being the scene of a massive rally involving tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands. Not the be out done, Karl von Habsburg was granted the title King of Austria – holding an elaborate coronation ceremony in Vienna in which he promised to protect German democracy from its twin enemies of divisive Republicanism and authoritarian Reaction (a combative statement for a figure linked to a coalition with the far and extreme right). Of course, the issue of who should become the future Kaiser could not be resolved so long as the pro-Habsburg and pro-Hohenzollern factions remained in such close balance – President Hindenburg being appointed as Regent until the dispute could be settled once and for all (in practise a compromise heavily favouring the Prussians). Finally, and most controversially, the Imperial Bill placed certain limits upon freedom of speech and trade union activity – banning ‘revolutionary’ publications and all ‘political’ strike action, effectively measures aimed at combatting the expected resistance of the largely Republican labour movement.


By March 1920 all three leaders of the non-Socialist Republican parties had either resigned or been forced out of the leaderships of their respective parties in light of ruinous election results and the rise of the new German Empire. Despite the despondency amongst these parties, they had won 16.4% of the vote between them – and many believed that a united non-Socialist Republican movement could play a valuable role in the struggle against the Empire. Chief amongst these thinkers was Adam Stegerwald’s replacement at the head of the FVP – Matthais Erzberger. The 45 year old was to become the first leader of the verbosely named Republican People’s Party of Germany (RVPD) which unified the FVP, the DZP R (leaving the monarchist party to claim sole ownership of the name German Centre Party) and a minority of the DDP with 10 of the party’s 30 Reichstag deputies joining the new formation. Identifying itself as being a synergy of Christian Democratic and Liberal ideology the DRVD had emerged as the fourth force in German politics.


The rise of the Right to power ushered in a new wave of militarism. Although the Republican era had seen German construct a small and modern fleet, the navy was massively expanded with a number of enormous battleships forging Germany as a naval powerhouse. At the same time hundreds of thousands were recruited to bolster the ranks of the army – conscription being significantly expanded to accommodate the military build-up.


The paper hats, the paramilitaries of the German Workers’ Party, played an important role in stabilising the Empire. Their terrorisation of the Republican Left made it extremely difficult for the regime’s opponents to organise extra parliamentary opposition and kept many from associating themselves with the movement. Yet, the empowerment of the paper hats came at a price – their terrorism was not exclusively employed against Socialists and other Republicans, but also Jews and Polish migrants West of the Elbe. When in 1921 SED leader Scheidemann demanded that the government openly condemn the paper hats and take action against the organisation it caused a political crisis in government. Whilst many in the government were either ambivalent or actively supportive of Anti-Polish and Anti-Semitic attacks, Wilhelm of Prussia even praising the paper hats as true patriots, not to mention the paper hats’ assaults on their direct political enemies, the Chancellor was left in an unenviable position by the man he ostensibly represented in the Reichstag – Karl von Habsburg. The ‘King of Austria’ came out in opposition to the paper hats, claiming that the Fascists were both immoral and leading Germany towards civil war. With Papen realising any action against the Fascists would scupper his government, seeing the DAP leave and the DNVP alienated, his hands were tied – yet he was still left to face the wreckage caused by the Habsburg claimant’s comments with the confidence of his allies in him and his party being greatly shaken.


The period was, unsurprisingly, punctuated by intense and frequent industrial action. Not only was the labour movement militantly opposed to the Imperial regime and the Papen government, the period witnessed a drastic squeeze in the living conditions of the working class. After a final year of relatively strong growth in 1920 Germany descended into stagnation with an average industrial growth rate of less than 1% from 1921-1925. At the same time the high costs involved in the government’s large scale military expansion programme saw taxes rise, worse yet the period witnessed a steadily rising rate of inflation. With the economy struggle and incomes being hit hard strikes were inevitable. The scale they arrived on was quite shocking. Between 1921-1925 10 times as many work days were lost to strikes as in the last for years of the Republic in 1915-1919. With police frequently facing the threat of being overwhelmed the government deployed military units on several occasions to bolster police units in combatting strikers, all the while finding negotiations with the Socialist trade union leaderships nearly impossible.


Gustav Stresemann had been one of the great opponents of the Republic in the previous decade – leading the DNVP along a path that finally brought them to power in 1919 and defeated the Republic the following year. Long a supporter of the Hohenzollerns, Stresemann found himself increasingly isolated within his own party. For many the prolonged ‘regency’ of Paul von Hindenburg was a humiliation for the Empire, unable to agree upon a new Kaiser, nor a new constitution the Empire restored in 1920 existing in a bizarre state of limbo. Stresemann and his allies were determined to end this deadlock by coming to an agreement with Papen’s Centrists. Realising than Wilhelm could never appeal to the majority of the nation – being too closely associated with authoritarianism, the original Kaiserreich and anti-democratic movements – and being impressed by the behaviour of Karl von Habsburg since his emergence as a national figure the one time Chancellor attempted to build support within the DNVP for an abandonment of the old commitment to the House of Hohenzollern. Such a suggestion was unacceptable – Stresemann was expelled from the party along with a further 25 DNVP deputies in early 1924. Shortly after the expulsion the ex-DNVP deputies joined with the parliamentary DDP to form a new political party – the German National Liberal Party, a political formation committed to free market economics, constitutional monarchy and willing to support a Habsburg claimant. A small, extra parliamentary, faction of the old DDP splintered off to form what was little more than a radical quasi-anarchist think tank issuing a statement ''the Socialists are evil! the monarchists are the devil! Down with the statists!'' The group was little heard of ever again.


Just weeks before the formation of the DNLP in early 1924 (a party that remained firmly within the ranks of the Papen government) a coup had been launched in Prague that brought to power a faction closely aligned with the German state that desired ‘reunification’. In truth it was a cabal of German Nationalists and rapid Anti-Communists fearful of revolution in the country, funded and armed by Berlin. With Prague petitioning the German government for reunification the embattled government received a desperately needed groundswell of support.

By mid-1924, the Centre Party had come to similar conclusions to the newly reborn National Liberals; the experiment in a semi-authoritarian Empire without a Kaiser could go on no longer. Democratic reform was required to satiate the Left and a definitive solution to the Empire’s lack of a monarch and constitution achieved. Yet, without a shift of power within the Reichstag, the reformists within the coalition had no hope of achieving their aims. With this in mind Papen called for fresh elections for January 1925 – believing that if his own party and the National Liberals could not achieve a majority on their own, enough support would drain away from the hardliners on the Left and Right to make a shift towards constitutional monarchy finally possible.
 

Tommy4ever

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I decided to start writing the latest update just before bed and ended up finishing it! So you lucky people get your second update in like 14 hours! :eek:
 

Noco19

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How dare the disgraceful Habsburg condemn German patriots doing their duty!

God bless Wilhelm, God bless the Reich!
 

Terraferma

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A surprise update, thanks Tommy highly appreciated. Reading this made me think of the phrase "The more things change the more they stay the same." Limbo described it pretty well.
 

Scrapknight

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I hope of all you "democratic" monarchists are happy with what your precious "protectors of democracy" have accomplished.

I'm surprised, though thankful, that we are even having an election at this point.
 

ThaHoward

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So much for the "liberal" and "democratic" monarchists fighitng against the "autocratic" Republic. Well they got back to the old Kaiserreich with it's old rules! So yeah, according to them it was a step forward! XD

But we got a bigger navy!

And everyone, now we see the effects of the internventionist policies we have had. The first signs of recession have come. Under 1% economical growth. Now an economic crisis, in the middle of a political and social crisis, how will this go?

Liberals are the only ones who support sound economics and sound politics and liberty. With the rest of the parties it will become recessions, financial crisis and depressioins. Which will lead to enormous unemployment and social unrest. Top that with the current crisis' we have. Oh the fascists and communists will sure take advantage of this. Turn to the liberals before it is too late.

Think about it, I warned you against this (a split government, more autocratic society and more power to the DAP), the bubbles and overheatings of the economy and now the recession. Don't know if it is good or not that my predictions are always fullfilled! Even that the Habsburgs will be proposed as new Kaisers :p Either I can look into the future (which I can't), or got good understandings of economics and real politik. Eitherway, you should start listening to me. Start being rational and see the world as it really is. This is our only chance of restoring dempcracy, liberty and a free-society.

((Actually it is kinda fun that all of my predictions come true! :p ))

Anyway my dear husband, are you proud of our son who are going tomjoin the military? Wonder if he will go into the army or navy. Anyway, I hope he will have an exciting time and that it won't be a war soon.
 
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