Blocking Asian westernization?

[Kinniken]

Hi guys,

I'm planning a WC attempt as France (not one-tag) and I'm wondering whether there is a reliable way to avoid westernization in Asia - at least outside the middle-east. Obvious moves would include:
- Cutting off Muscovy from Siberia early
- Destroy the OE early
- Destroy Portugal before they get that Goan core
- Basically stop any Western country from settling in Asia, outside maybe of Indonesia.

Even with that though problems remain. One, there will have to be Western-non-Western borders at least in the Middle-East and around the Urals. Two, if I want to take any land in Asia, even in trade areas, I don't see how I can avoid commingling cores (unless I only take land from single-core provinces whose owners I annex in one go - won't be many of those).

Any thoughts? It would make a huge difference to be able to just protectorate Ming in one war rather than having to eat the whole lot...

Thanks!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Shredding Portugal before they get to Cape and spamming down protectorates in Asia will vastly delay westernization. Cutting Muscovy doesn't even have to be early, just before they westernize.

If you make the rest protectorates + border only with trade companies westernization will be so delayed that it's unlikely it'll ever get far. If you want to permanently block sub-Saharan Africa you'll have to protectorate those guys too and block Morocco from the Tuat event.

 

[Wizzington]

In 1.14, AI protectorates do not westernize.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In 1.14, AI protectorates do not westernize.

Will a human protectorate still be allowed to do so, on the off chance it happens?

I suppose it barely matters now that I think about it, but still useful to know.

 

[Wizzington]

Will a human protectorate still be allowed to do so, on the off chance it happens?

I suppose it barely matters now that I think about it, but still useful to know.

Yeah, player protectorates can still westernize. However, protectorates will also calc their liberty desire based off all protectorates' power, so you can't blanket-protectorate all of asia.

 

[gdj]

In 1.14, AI protectorates do not westernize.

I dont like this at all. Whats the point of making it even harder for others to westernise?

I found it pretty unfair when WoN made westernisation for Asian and African countries harder by making it impossible to do so by bordering trade companies. What contributed more to the spread of western ideas than trade? This mechanic only caused players to "island hop" to America and place a colony next to a CN to westernise, which is ludicrous.

When AI protectorates now dont westernise at all, all non Europeans effectively become pinatas to be smashed at will.

 

[Wizzington]

Basically we want to make having protectorates meaningful, and people avoid them because they just end up westernizing. This is sort of a temporary solution until we figure out exactly how we're going to handle westernization in the future. Besides, it's not like european AI goes rampant in asia right now.

 

[paulatreides0]

Why not make westernization give options for vassals. Something along the lines of:

1) Protectorate wants to westernize:
a) You can allow
b) You can deny

If b)
b1) Protectorate agrees
b2) Protectorate disagrees - go to war

If a)
a1) Protectorate westernizes. Can ask to become vassal.

then:
a1a) Protectorate agrees. Becomes vassal
a1b) Protectorate disagrees. Go to war.

Weighted by different liberty desire levels and comparative strength, of course.

 

[Wizzington]

Why not make westernization give options for vassals. Something along the lines of:

1) Protectorate wants to westernize:
a) You can allow

I have a hard time seeing why you'd ever allow it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, player protectorates can still westernize. However, protectorates will also calc their liberty desire based off all protectorates' power, so you can't blanket-protectorate all of asia.

...not for long, anyway . Probably for the best, thanks for clarifying. As for why you'd allow a protectorate to westernize, I could envision a small one becoming a diplovassal.

 

[paulatreides0]

I have a hard time seeing why you'd ever allow it.

Sorry, accidentally clicked the "post reply" button without meaning to.

That being said, wouldn't allowing them to westernize allow them to have higher tech levels which means more production and whatnot which means more trade?

 

[ELPhantomII]

However, protectorates will also calc their liberty desire based off all protectorates' power, so you can't blanket-protectorate all of asia.

Is that aspect moddable?

 

[Wizzington]

A protectorate that westernizes breaks away because protectorating requires a certain tech difference.

 

[Path]

I don't suppose you'd consider a subject interaction option to block vassals from westernizing? Nothing like having your 1000+ dev lovely horde vassals suddenly decide that they'd rather be western and turn themselves into a horrible resource drain for two decades. Currently it seems the only way to prevent this is to constantly feed them more land. An option to block westernization in exchange for higher LD would be welcome

 

[grommile]

That being said, wouldn't allowing them to westernize allow them to have higher tech levels which means more production and whatnot which means more trade?

No, because:

• ADM tech advances provide production_efficiency bonuses (which change the amount of money a country makes per unit of a given trade good it produces), not global_trade_goods_size_modifier bonuses (which change the number of units of trade goods the country produces).
  
• as Wiz has noted, Westernization cancels protectorate status with no compensation for the overlord

 

[gdj]

Basically we want to make having protectorates meaningful, and people avoid them because they just end up westernizing. This is sort of a temporary solution until we figure out exactly how we're going to handle westernization in the future. Besides, it's not like european AI goes rampant in asia right now.

Thank you, this is an explanation i gladly accept, when its only temporary.

 

[gdj]

Come to think of it, have you considered tying it to the newly set up trust-mechanic?

A loyal long term ally who enjoys a high degree of trust with a western nation might get enough in-depht knowledge to actually westernize, and become a real partner in the region (instead of just a pawn).

(This actually what imperialists always claimed to offer..)

 

[QDI]

I have a hard time seeing why you'd ever allow it.

Because you want to annex it

 

[Wizzington]

Because you want to annex it

Cancel protectorate? Seems a lot easier than waiting 10 years for them to westernize.

 

[happymix91]

Personally, I like these changes about protectorates more than whole things in today's DD.

With colonial war for protectorate, these changes will make protectorate system more useful and interesting.