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RickInVA

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I was going to try and explain that "gameplay" basically equates to fun, but we seem to have different meanings for that word. A "fun" game is one that is enjoyable to play.
Now it simply isn't possible to make a game that is fun for everyone, I really enjoy playing Eldritch Horror and Agricola and would call them fun but many of my friends don't.
I completely reject your premise that mechanically complex games aren't "fun".

To me "playing for fun" and "enjoyment" are not the same thing. If you are a professional football player you may get "enjoyment" out of playing, but you are not "playing for fun". You are serious, you have a real stake in the outcome, you are engaged, you are immersed.

A game that I "play for fun" is one where I really don't care, at all, if I win or lose. It is something I engage in for some light amusement that I get enjoyment out of. That is not what I am looking for in a WWII game. You, or any other individual, may be looking for some light entertainment, a "rom-com" version of WWII. I am looking for the in depth documentary version (which, yes, I am well aware that this is not what Paradox is trying to provide, which is basically my whole point!). I still get "enjoyment" out of playing, but I have a whole separate set of expectations for it than I do for something I "play for fun".

YMMV
 
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What wouldn't be historical or fun would be there being no allied campaign in Africa because Egypt wasn't a part of the war (because historically they weren't). Nor would it be historical for Egypt to join the war, nor would it be fun or historical if because of their being a puppet, the UK AI pretty much ignored that front. History is rather complex, and trying to fit every range of servitude within 3 states is obviously going to flounder.
 
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To me "playing for fun" and "enjoyment" are not the same thing. If you are a professional football player you may get "enjoyment" out of playing, but you are not "playing for fun". You are serious, you have a real stake in the outcome, you are engaged, you are immersed.

A game that I "play for fun" is one where I really don't care, at all, if I win or lose. It is something I engage in for some light amusement that I get enjoyment out of. That is not what I am looking for in a WWII game. You, or any other individual, may be looking for some light entertainment, a "rom-com" version of WWII. I am looking for the in depth documentary version (which, yes, I am well aware that this is not what Paradox is trying to provide, which is basically my whole point!). I still get "enjoyment" out of playing, but I have a whole separate set of expectations for it than I do for something I "play for fun".

YMMV

That is the disconnect, I consider "enjoying" something and "having fun" equivalent. There are different shades of "fun", granted.
I would say the professional footballer analogy would be better suited for something like LoL, where there is a professional scene. We'll all be playing the game recreationally, not professionally. (Feel free to correct me if there's a pro GSG circuit that I'm not aware of.)

Paradox has stated that historical realism is not a compelling argument for a change that would make the game worse to play. I.E. having Japanese colonial holdings in Korea and Manchuria as a puppet completely screws up supply and AI planning issues for Japan while the same systems work fine elsewhere, so they just gave Japan direct control of the area similar to most European colonial holdings. Since all those areas were basically under Japan's direct control anyway, there is really only a marginal loss of names-on-map for substantive improvements to the game mechanics in that region.

All attempts to model real world situations are going to be a compromise in any system. Properly modeling Egypt's unique situation, I feel, falls under the same guidelines as Iceland's. While it was technically, sorta, a separate nation (in Iceland's case, from Denmark in a personal union), there's no real benefit to creating a whole set of special mechanics for a single, mostly irrelevant, country.

Edit:
Are there games you can point to that are a good example of this level of historical detail you are looking for? The only WWII games I'm aware of that take an even more in-depth approach to historical detail than Paradox are Grigsby's.
 
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Exactly! What the heck is "gameplay > all" (in my most condescending and mocking voice) supposed to mean anyway?

Paradox used to be (IMHO) a bastion against the "easy way", against the "dumbing down", against the idea that people didn't want games that accurately represented history. Either I was always wrong, or those times have passed.

There is an easy solution if you think the game is "dumbed down".

Don't buy it.

@Secret Master summarized this whole non-issue perfectly.
 
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Secret Master

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SM, I have the utmost respect for you. I also do own and have played all those games you mentioned. (Parenthetically, I never knew there was a EU board game, learn something new every day!) I also agree with you that in the progression of EU and Vicky that each iteration (generally) has tried to make the historical simulation aspect of the game better.

However, it is my personal opinion that this has now changed. The Devs' comments in HOI4 and Stelaris (obviously not from a historical perspective) Dev Diaries clearly indicate to me that a shift has taken place to this "gameplay > all" idea. Again I will say, "whatever that means", because I honestly have no idea what that is supposed to mean if it doesn't mean "making the game easier to play", "making complex aspects simpler", and/or "when historical reality and ease of play are in opposition to each other, history is always going to be sacrificed". I did not feel this way in the past. In the past I felt that a real effort was being made to include historical accuracy as much as possible. Now I feel that the idea is to only include as much historical accuracy as minimally necessary.

Minimally necessary sounds like the wrong term to use here, but let's break this down into manageable chunks.

"Making the game easier to play" may or may not have anything to do with historical accuracy. Let me us a CK example. In the original CK, finding brides could be a real hassle (bride finding mods FTW). In CK2, they made it much easier to find brides and find brides that would result in alliances. It's easier to play the game (finding good spouses), but it's not more or less historically accurate. The interface was improved to provide information to the player in a way that makes it easier to choose.

As for "Making complex aspects simpler," there is a big difference between "player has no idea what is going on" and "player grasps how mechanics work." In previous Paradox games, there has been a constant complaint in reviews that the games' complexity are artificially increased by obscurity in mechanics or the interface. HOI3 was guilty of this in earlier iterations. So guilty, in fact, that the infamous "toughness doesn't work" bug was not discovered until some enterprising players were able to prove it using very obscure testing techniques that involved modding the game and running comparisons. When a central combat mechanic is not working, but almost no one can even tell that it's not working (the Devs literally said that the game had been balanced with the broken mechanic because they couldn't even tell it was broken), there is a complexity problem in the game. So, when someone says they want to make complex aspects simpler, I assume they don't mean fewer mechanics or dumber mechanics, but they mean the mechanics will be understandable to the player. After all, I can't think of a Paradox franchise that has gotten simpler in sequels, so I have no reason to think the games will be getting dumber.

Then there is the whole "when historical reality and ease of play are in opposition to each other, history is always going to be sacrificed" problem. Ease of play is the wrong way to put it. Instead, it's better to think of it as "with limited development time for mechanics, and with a need for rational gameplay that can be understood with the interface available, sometimes historical situations have to be shoehorned into mechanics that already exist." The situation with Manchukuo is a great example. In HOI3, Manchukuo was a puppet of Japan. Despite its historical accuracy, I always hated how it worked within the game mechanics; the situation in Manchuria was not rational in game terms despite its historical accuracy. Do you know that there were games I would let Chiang annex Manchukuo, only to have me take it back and just run it as a friendly annexed territory, because it made more sense in game terms? Sure, I suppose a unique puppet/master relationship could have been used just for Manchukuo (some folks always suggested having Kwangtung Army Command as a special separate country), but that takes development time that might be better spent doing something like having better national focus trees. In HOI4, just turning Manchukuo into land owned directly by Japan, while not technically historically accurate, might actually make the game more rational when it is played, because normal puppet mechanics simply don't work well when modeling this particular situation. (I see Egypt in the same way.)



There are games I play "for fun". I play Majesty for fun. I play Total War for fun. I play Age of Wonders for fun. I am not looking to have a WWII game that I "play for fun". I want a WWII game that I play because it is an exceptional simulation of WWII that challenges me to make optimal, difficult, choices. That has many many levers for me to adjust. That as much as possible provides me the same kind of challenges that the real national leaders and commanders had.

I am NOT saying, at all, that previous HOIs provided that. I am saying that I felt that Paradox was trying to provide that. I no longer feel that way.

As that is my personal opinion you can of course share it or not. But you cannot refute my opinion, you can only have your own.

You may have been misled, then. This is a post Johan made in 2003 (he has said this over and over again, I just picked the oldest one I could find): HOI is Currently Unplayable

I can't quote it normally, because the thread is closed and it's so old. Note Johan's comment at #5

And here's comments regarding the original CK in 2004:

Nopes. This is a game, not a simulation.

And more:

Its a game, not a simulation..

There's nothing new about Paradox policy in this regard. Maybe you've been fooled by the quality of the games that you thought they were simulations? Stranger things have happened.
 
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Yeah, there are games out there that emphasise the historical accuracy above all, but generally speaking they're a far more niche market - though in recent months it seems to be opening up a bit.

Hearts of Iron hasn't ever really been part of that market - it's far more accessible and mass-market-appealing than something like War in the Pacific.

maxresdefault.jpg
 
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We have always designed games, not simulations. You can find quotes from me thats repeated for decades on these forums..

And archeologists will probably recover some of these quotes when in a thousand years they excavate Stockholm.......or are you then still there Johan Odinsson :) :) :)
 
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Exactly! What the heck is "gameplay > all" (in my most condescending and mocking voice) supposed to mean anyway?

Paradox used to be (IMHO) a bastion against the "easy way", against the "dumbing down", against the idea that people didn't want games that accurately represented history. Either I was always wrong, or those times have passed.
Yeah, it's downright tragic how dumbed down HOI has become.
(cough, my sig, cough)
 
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To me "playing for fun" and "enjoyment" are not the same thing. If you are a professional football player you may get "enjoyment" out of playing, but you are not "playing for fun". You are serious, you have a real stake in the outcome, you are engaged, you are immersed.

A game that I "play for fun" is one where I really don't care, at all, if I win or lose. It is something I engage in for some light amusement that I get enjoyment out of. That is not what I am looking for in a WWII game. You, or any other individual, may be looking for some light entertainment, a "rom-com" version of WWII. I am looking for the in depth documentary version (which, yes, I am well aware that this is not what Paradox is trying to provide, which is basically my whole point!). I still get "enjoyment" out of playing, but I have a whole separate set of expectations for it than I do for something I "play for fun".

YMMV
My two cents: there are two things to be considered when measuring realism, however: how realistic the "premise" is, and how realistic it makes the outcome.

I disliked how Norway surrendered once Oslo fell in Hearts of Iron 3, for example. Until someone pointed out to me that with HOI3's AI, if you spread victory points out over all of Norway, Operation Weserubung became Germany's doom as she would follow up her initial invasion by sending a massive army into the country through Sweden, only to have it run out of supplies and get bogged down once the captured ports inevitably failed to channel enough supplies.

Another example being how you can't build ships on the Caspian Sea -- because if you could, the AI would deploy massive fleets there.

As far as I've understood it, PDX are going for some inaccuracies in design for a higher accurate outcome in this case. Time will tell if it's the best move, or if patches/mods will improve upon their solution.


I dislike the whole elitism surrounding "true" wargamers, "hardcore" players, and various other iterations, just so it's said. Just that you have a certain opinion doesn't mean everyone who disagrees with you are arcade CoD players who want to play witth toy soldiers, while you're an l33t grognard who actually takes WWII seriously.

That is the disconnect, I consider "enjoying" something and "having fun" equivalent. There are different shades of "fun", granted.
I would say the professional footballer analogy would be better suited for something like LoL, where there is a professional scene. We'll all be playing the game recreationally, not professionally. (Feel free to correct me if there's a pro GSG circuit that I'm not aware of.)
Plus that you can play the same game wiht different mindsets. I can fire up War in the East and just mess around, playing a quick game where I don't micro stuff that much and just try out various things, or I can get out pen and paper and play an in-depth session where I take notes, meticulously plan my moves, and try to keep track of all the different elements as best I can (assigning the best officers to the most important divisions, flying air missions, keeping HQs in range of divisions, etc.).

 
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Minimally necessary sounds like the wrong term to use here, but let's break this down into manageable chunks.

"Making the game easier to play" may or may not have anything to do with historical accuracy. Let me us a CK example. In the original CK, finding brides could be a real hassle (bride finding mods FTW). In CK2, they made it much easier to find brides and find brides that would result in alliances. It's easier to play the game (finding good spouses), but it's not more or less historically accurate. The interface was improved to provide information to the player in a way that makes it easier to choose.

As for "Making complex aspects simpler," there is a big difference between "player has no idea what is going on" and "player grasps how mechanics work." In previous Paradox games, there has been a constant complaint in reviews that the games' complexity are artificially increased by obscurity in mechanics or the interface. HOI3 was guilty of this in earlier iterations. So guilty, in fact, that the infamous "toughness doesn't work" bug was not discovered until some enterprising players were able to prove it using very obscure testing techniques that involved modding the game and running comparisons. When a central combat mechanic is not working, but almost no one can even tell that it's not working (the Devs literally said that the game had been balanced with the broken mechanic because they couldn't even tell it was broken), there is a complexity problem in the game. So, when someone says they want to make complex aspects simpler, I assume they don't mean fewer mechanics or dumber mechanics, but they mean the mechanics will be understandable to the player. After all, I can't think of a Paradox franchise that has gotten simpler in sequels, so I have no reason to think the games will be getting dumber.

Then there is the whole "when historical reality and ease of play are in opposition to each other, history is always going to be sacrificed" problem. Ease of play is the wrong way to put it. Instead, it's better to think of it as "with limited development time for mechanics, and with a need for rational gameplay that can be understood with the interface available, sometimes historical situations have to be shoehorned into mechanics that already exist." The situation with Manchukuo is a great example. In HOI3, Manchukuo was a puppet of Japan. Despite its historical accuracy, I always hated how it worked within the game mechanics; the situation in Manchuria was not rational in game terms despite its historical accuracy. Do you know that there were games I would let Chiang annex Manchukuo, only to have me take it back and just run it as a friendly annexed territory, because it made more sense in game terms? Sure, I suppose a unique puppet/master relationship could have been used just for Manchukuo (some folks always suggested having Kwangtung Army Command as a special separate country), but that takes development time that might be better spent doing something like having better national focus trees. In HOI4, just turning Manchukuo into land owned directly by Japan, while not technically historically accurate, might actually make the game more rational when it is played, because normal puppet mechanics simply don't work well when modeling this particular situation. (I see Egypt in the same way.)





You may have been misled, then. This is a post Johan made in 2003 (he has said this over and over again, I just picked the oldest one I could find): HOI is Currently Unplayable

I can't quote it normally, because the thread is closed and it's so old. Note Johan's comment at #5

And here's comments regarding the original CK in 2004:



And more:



There's nothing new about Paradox policy in this regard. Maybe you've been fooled by the quality of the games that you thought they were simulations? Stranger things have happened.

Louie: "I've always wondered Rick what brought you to Paradox Games?"

Rick: "I came for the historical simulations."

Louie: "Historical simulations? What historical simulations, Paradox makes games."

Rick: "I was misinformed."
 
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Let me just conclude by saying that, while I may have been deluding myself for years, whatever je ne sais quoi Paradox games had that appealed to me is quickly disappearing.
 
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I'm intrigued that someone has Respectfully Disagreed with my last post. Does that mean you think that I actually do still like Paradox games, but somehow I don't know it? I'm glad you are here to tell me these things!
 
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I'm intrigued that someone has Respectfully Disagreed with my last post. Does that mean you think that I actually do still like Paradox games, but somehow I don't know it? I'm glad you are here to tell me these things!
It's probably a disagreement with the idea that the basic essence of Paradox games has changed, but it could also just be that there's only one "downvote" button and all the possible reasons to not like/agree with a post get conflated.
 
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Historical Accuracy, is somethign else and is much further down the priority list (and is often impossible since all simulations are approximations)

You can still have an approximation or abstraction that is accurate at the level of the approximation/abstraction :). That said, I generally think you and the team strike a very good balance with that kind of thing, just being semantic - logic > all :p.

but here's the problem, Paradox don't have infinite time, or infinite money, or infinite skill. Something has to give, you can't have perfection in every area. As podcat himself replied that it would make the area harder for the AI to manage, and manchuria is the same.

"gameplay > all" isn't a motto of "throw history out the window", or anything like that. its "when a choice needs to be made, gameplay will be favoured" as they've explained was the case with manchuria and egypt. The AI really does need all the help it can get to go up against players and if this makes the AI work better than so be it.

I totally agree with everything you say, and wasn't trying to say otherwise (if you see my earlier posts on HoI4's treatment of Egypt in this thread, they say pretty much the same thing on the thread's topic). I was more addressing the logic of the specific post. Sometimes, it's a case of deciding between two treatments that have similar levels of fun/work to develop and different levels of historical plausibility. Don't get me wrong, I think PDS do an excellent job in this regard (sure, they've made some decisions I wouldn't have, but that's probably a mark in their favour, not the other way around ;)).

And I imagine that accessing fully the Indian manpower (with the UK tech on top of it) would make the UK impossible to grind down as Germany or Japan.

Oh aye, you don't want the UK running around in HoI4 like they can in Vicky 2!
 
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*wakes up from slumber....gets up out of wheelchair...taps cane to floor*

Back in the days of HoI2 and the original CORE mod (yes I know ancient history only read about in the scrolls of past fora by those younger members of the community who only came to the community with HoI3 or later) one thing we did in the mod was separate out the Nile Valley as EGY, leaving the Western Desert, Suez, Sinai and Sudan to the British. Given the limitations of what the game engine could do back then, it worked fairly well.

I am sure someone, somewhere will create a mod that does something similar for HoI4 for that fraction of the game community that would like a more *historical* setup to represent the geopolitics of Egypt (and other states) in this era, of course depending upon how the game engine handles such a transformed setup in testing.

I leave with the following words of wisdom as one who has been involved in the modding community of Paradox off and on for over a decade...the released game as produced by Paradox is never the final version, it is but merely a foundation upon which the modding community is able to build its own castles in the sky and take the game in directions the developers may never have even contemplated. And that, my friends, is one of the absolute BEST things about Paradox games.

*shuffles back to wheelchair and slowly drifts back to sleep" :p
 
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*wakes up from slumber....gets up out of wheelchair...taps cane to floor*

Back in the days of HoI2 and the original CORE mod (yes I know ancient history only read about in the scrolls of past fora by those younger members of the community who only came to the community with HoI3 or later) one thing we did in the mod was separate out the Nile Valley as EGY, leaving the Western Desert, Suez, Sinai and Sudan to the British. Given the limitations of what the game engine could do back then, it worked fairly well.

I am sure someone, somewhere will create a mod that does something similar for HoI4 for that fraction of the game community that would like a more *historical* setup to represent the geopolitics of Egypt (and other states) in this era, of course depending upon how the game engine handles such a transformed setup in testing.

I leave with the following words of wisdom as one who has been involved in the modding community of Paradox off and on for over a decade...the released game as produced by Paradox is never the final version, it is but merely a foundation upon which the modding community is able to build its own castles in the sky and take the game in directions the developers may never have even contemplated. And that, my friends, is one of the absolute BEST things about Paradox games.

*shuffles back to wheelchair and slowly drifts back to sleep" :p
That's not really more historical, though, is it? I mean, it's not like Egypt was more in control of one part of the country than the other.
 
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It has repeatedly been stated that it is a military simulator not a historicity simulator. If everything was to be completely historically accurate it wouldn't be a game. Posts like these keep nitpicking very specific details about the game before OP has even gotten to play the game. Yes, some details aren't exactly the same as they were during the war. However, once again this isn't a history lesson it is a game. It is made to be enjoyable not for educational purposes.

If your main critique is that the game (emphasis on game) isn't exactly the same as how things were in the 30s and 40s then I'd have to say that HOI4 is an incredible success. The very fact that it is even plausible for a England/France merger or a peaceful democratic Germany in the game says that absolute historical authenticity isn't the point of the game. The game is there to be fun.

If the comments about the historical inaccuracies were merely discussions on how its different from history then it would be fine. However, when thread titles are "Blatant Factual Inaccuracies" and then like then please, with all due respect, get off your high horse. If you don't like it the games are incredible modder friendly and can be altered for your perfect world or you can go ahead and make a game yourself.

The versions of Egypt and British Raj in this game were decided upon with the thought of how to make the gameplay more enjoyable and more balanced. It is the same reason that Manchukuo doesn't exist in game because it would limit Japan mechanically. Responding that the mechanics should be fixed to deal with that is just whining for the sake of whining.

Love the game/Hate the game. Remember it's a game and that the development team has worked countless hours to make it for us to play and enjoy. Don't poo poo their work because of some minor detail you don't like. /rant end
 
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