Black Sheep Turks

[unmerged(13581)]

During my last games with the newest patch I saw the Black Sheep Turks grow into a very big empire every time, so I decided to give it a try myself. It took me only 2 fast wars to reduce the Timurid Empire to a 2 province minor, the Mushasha (or whatever) urpsing didn't do anything as the revolters got anhilated very soon and so I've already been the largest Empire on earth when the War Against the White Sheep Turks Event triggered. The White Sheep Turks were a 3 province country that just lost a war to Karaman. Futhermore I've been allied with the Ottomans so it took only several month to take them out. Both the Ottomans and I recieved a province and I thought all was good. But just a year later my monarch died and an event triggered telling me that I don't have a leader and that I should submit to the White Sheep Turks. Now I see that's an historical event, but shouldn't it be somewhat dependant on the situation? The White Sheep Turks just lost the war, my Empire was along the strongest on Earth and my Alliance (Egypt, Ottomans and myself) could take on just like anything.

In my honest opinion the whole White&Black Sheep Events should be somewhat reworked, because even the AI has no probelms at all to take down the Timurid Empire and to grow into a superpower. If I kept playing from that point I probably could have taken out all of India or even the HRE withing about 50 to 100 years with the help of the Ottomans who had a +200 relation with me. As a side note - I chose "Submit to the White Sheep Turks" when the event triggered, but nothing ever happened.

 

[unmerged(21523)]

I believe you would have been inherited by the White Sheep had they existed by choosing to submit. I have noticed this problem as well, where the Black Sheep take out the White Sheep and in consequence Persia never forms. Perhaps the Black Sheep should get the option of turning into Persia as well?

 

[Garbon]

If there isn't an option for the Kara Koyunlu to become Persia perhaps there should be, or greater chances of Persia revolting free.

On the note about the strength of the Sheep Powers, it was sort of a fluke that the Kara Koyunlu fell to the Ak Koyunlu. It was only the death of their leader that caused them to fall to the Ak Koyunlu, as at that time the Kara Koyunlu was pretty powerful. Besides, yea the whole sequence can be avoided if you wipe out the Ak Koyunlu prior to the historical death date of the Kara Koyunlu leader.

 

[Archaalen]

This topic has been discussed before, I thought it had been implemented already...

 

[DSMyers1]

It hasn't, I think--And Persia has not formed in my last several games; I just got a huge Kara Koyunlu

 

[unmerged(13581)]

Well actually the White Sheep Turks still existed as a 1 province country and they did get a Event called something like "Kara Koyunlu submits" but as I said nothing happened. I tried reloading, reloading as Ak Koyunlu and just running the game on fastest for several years. Looks like the event doesn't work as intended. And as DSMyers1 stated, the last time I say Persia forming must have been a while back - all my games with the latest patches just ended with a huge Kara Koyunlu.

 

[Twoflower]

Well actually the White Sheep Turks still existed as a 1 province country and they did get a Event called something like "Kara Koyunlu submits" but as I said nothing happened. I tried reloading, reloading as Ak Koyunlu and just running the game on fastest for several years. Looks like the event doesn't work as intended.

The event works...the problem is just that a player country cannot be inherited and that the inherit command never works when it targets a player country. This is something the AGCEEP cannot do anything about, sadly.

And as DSMyers1 stated, the last time I say Persia forming must have been a while back - all my games with the latest patches just ended with a huge Kara Koyunlu.

Kara Koyunlu needs to get an event that turns it into Persia; I mean this "state" did not differ that much in its structure from the Ak Koyunlu and it's perfectly realistic to assume that it could have been taken over by the Safavids as well - plus this would help historical development of the game a lot.

 

[unmerged(13581)]

Ah alright I'm sorry, didn't know that I can't be inherited so I thought it's a bug. Giving Kara Koyunlu an event that turns them into Persia might fix most of the problems and should ensure Persia's forming most of the times, but still I think the Black Sheeps Turks get a too easy start! With all the cores in Timurid Empire it's not too hard to become very large in just a few years. Maybe they should get most or all of these cores with an event after some years so Timurid Empire has some time to build up some defences?

 

[Garbon]

Ah alright I'm sorry, didn't know that I can't be inherited so I thought it's a bug. Giving Kara Koyunlu an event that turns them into Persia might fix most of the problems and should ensure Persia's forming most of the times, but still I think the Black Sheeps Turks get a too easy start! With all the cores in Timurid Empire it's not too hard to become very large in just a few years. Maybe they should get most or all of these cores with an event after some years so Timurid Empire has some time to build up some defences?

Indeed perhaps, there could be events that trigger a little bit later on. Of course the point of this was that previously no amount of goading got the Black Sheep to take the appropriate provinces from the Timurids by the time they were to fall to the White Sheep. But yea now that its working, the timing could be more fine tuned.

Oh and actually, I think the Timurids have less fortifications now in order to ease their take over.

 

[unmerged(21523)]

I have no trouble at all with the Black Sheep expanding at the expense of the Timurids, what troubles me is their bothersome habit of annexing the White Sheep and preventing the formation of Persia, I really think we should just tack on n event sequence that allows Persia to form from the Black Sheep as well as the White Sheep.

 

[unmerged(13581)]

Well I'd say Kara Koyunlu annexing Ak Koyunlu is somewhat related with Kara Koyunlu taking so much land from the Timurid Empire! The Black Sheep Turks can easyily conquer most of Timurid giving them a lot of cores and a lot manpower. That way they have a 50.000 men army ready to strike the White Sheep Turks leaving them no chance at all. If they couldn't expand that fast they wouldn't be that prepared for their final war and so Ak Koyunlu might win sometimes. On the long term I don't care who formed Persia, but after all I'd say there should be at least a decent chance that things follow a historical path.

Concerning the weakened fortifications - that might be the main reason why Timurid keeps losing that fast - Kara Koyunlu just has to get a small army behind their lines and they can conquer a lot of provinces allowing them do dictate peace any way they want.

 

[Garbon]

Well I'd say Kara Koyunlu annexing Ak Koyunlu is somewhat related with Kara Koyunlu taking so much land from the Timurid Empire! The Black Sheep Turks can easyily conquer most of Timurid giving them a lot of cores and a lot manpower. That way they have a 50.000 men army ready to strike the White Sheep Turks leaving them no chance at all. If they couldn't expand that fast they wouldn't be that prepared for their final war and so Ak Koyunlu might win sometimes. On the long term I don't care who formed Persia, but after all I'd say there should be at least a decent chance that things follow a historical path.

Concerning the weakened fortifications - that might be the main reason why Timurid keeps losing that fast - Kara Koyunlu just has to get a small army behind their lines and they can conquer a lot of provinces allowing them do dictate peace any way they want.

Well I do indeed agree that the Kara Koyunlu should be toned down, its does stand to point out that the Kara Koyunlu were really at the top of their game upon their absorption by the Ak Koyunlu. Actually thats largely the reason for the "deterministic" event sequence that has them annexed by the Ak Koyunlu. If one looks back at history, it really seems quite a fluke that things turned out how they did, as the Ak Koyunlu was in no way nearly as powerful as the Kara Koyunlu. So while the Ak Koyunlu shouldn't get annexed by the Kara Koyunlu, it wouldn't really make sense for the Ak Koyunlu to be able to defeat the Kara Koyunlu without the event sequence.

But yeah, I can quickly put together a weakened setup for the Kara Koyunlu (and giving shields more spread out via event) and the many times over suggested Black Sheep->Persia sequence.

 

[Khephren]

Awhile back, Isengaard (IIRC) was studying the situation intensively and proposed making QAR shiite to start. He said they definitely qualified. Would this help the situation possibly?

 

[Garbon]

Okay so I worked on weakening the Black Sheep. They now won't get all the cores they had before ever (as they don't rightfully deserve them all) and the majority of cores on Timurid held lands come into play via event.

I think however upon analysis, the biggest stumbling block to the formation of Persia lies in the most tenuous way in which we have Persia form. I mean the primary way for Persia to form is for rebels to control province 530 (which is now not even Tabriz, but Qazvin) and for the AKK to become Persia. So we never have a situation where Persia takes out the AKK (which would be historical) and instead we have the ahistorical safety sequence occuring most often to form Persia. If anything there should be a greater emphasis of Persia forming out of the ruins of Shrivan (in Daghestan province) as thats where Ismail began his conquests. Needless to say, I'm working on such an event chain that should cause Persia to come into existence more often and more accurately.

 

[Garbon]

Awhile back, Isengaard (IIRC) was studying the situation intensively and proposed making QAR shiite to start. He said they definitely qualified. Would this help the situation possibly?

I don't really know about this, although at quick glance it appeared that the QAR had a slightly heretical view of religion. But I mainly think what was done can be undone. Referring to the fact that before my meddling the Qara Koyunlu rarely took any lands from the Timurids, so there should be a happy medium between that and my overcompensation.

 

[Yakman]

The problem is giving them too many cores. Cut back on the number of cores they get and you'll have fewer problems.

 

[Garbon]

Before I get all the events formulated here's the new neutered Qara Koyunlu setup. Note massive core reductions ^.^

#Qara Koyunlu (The Black Sheep Turks)#

country = { 
    tag = QAR 
    ai = "QAR-peaceful.ai"
    policy = { 
        date = { year = 0 month = january day = 0 } 
        aristocracy = 8
        centralization = 4
        innovative = 2
        mercantilism = 4
        offensive = 9
        land = 10
        quality = 3
        serfdom = 7
    } 
    colonialattempts = 0 
    colonialnation = no 
    major = no 
    colonists = 0 
    cancelledloans = 0 
    extendedloans = 0 
    treasury = 300 
    inflation = 0.100000 
    merchants = 0.083333 
    religion = { type = sunni }
    culture = { type = turkish }
    diplomacy = { 
    	relation = { tag = AKK value = -200 refusetrade = no } 
    	relation = { tag = OMA value = 25 }
    	relation = { tag = TIM value = -200 refusetrade = no } 
	relation = { tag = STE value = -200 refusetrade = no }
	relation = { tag = IRA value = -100 refusetrade = no casusbelli = { type = permanent expirydate = { year = 1450 month = january day = 1 } } }
    } 
    knownprovinces = { 270 272 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 515 519 520 521 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 819 820 821 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1135 1138 1326 1327 1361 1363 1529 1530 1531 1609 1610 1611 1612 1613 } 
    ownedprovinces = { 
        472 473 487 488 489 } 
    controlledprovinces = {
        472 473 487 488 489 } 
    nationalprovinces = { 
        472 473 487 488 489 530 531 } 
    city = { fortress = { level = 1 }   
        population = 10000
        location = 487 
	name = "Tabriz"
	capital = yes
	}
    city = {         
    	fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 8000
        location = 473 
    } 
    city = {         
    	fortress = { level = 1 }  
        population = 5000
        location = 472 
    } 
    city = {
    	fortress = { level = 1 }
        population = 20000
        location = 489
}
    city = { fortress = { level = 1 }
        population = 10000
        location = 488  
	name = "Mosul"
    } 
    landunit = { 
        id = { type = 9423 id = 629 } 
        name = "Qara Koyunlu Horde" 
        location = 487
        infantry = 6000 
        cavalry = 6000 
        artillery = 0 
        } 
    technology = {
		stability = { level = 2 value = 42 }
        infra = { level = 0 value = 0 }
  	  	trade = { level = 0 value = 0 }
        land = { level = 0 value = 0 } 
        naval = { level = 0 value = 0 } 
	  group = muslim
    } 
}

 

[Norrefeldt]

Awhile back, Isengaard (IIRC) was studying the situation intensively and proposed making QAR shiite to start. He said they definitely qualified. Would this help the situation possibly?

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2690090&postcount=521
Found it while I was looking for something else.

 

[Garbon]

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2690090&postcount=521
Found it while I was looking for something else.

Yay, I concur that my recent research re-validates his early assertions.

Oh and actually without any initial cores other than on what they already own, the Qara Koyunlu should be quite hurt with the new temporary setup I posted.

 

[Garbon]

Oh I just realized as I was looking around at what I have, that I still have all of Isengard's event changes and improvements on my Timurid setup. I'm going to take a look at them and then they can be posted for general consumption. (At this point there wasn't much for the Koyunlu's but there was his awesome working at helping the Timurids )