Bitter peace for england?

[unmerged(33619)]

I most suerly dissagre.
What happened to Englands colonial empire after ww2?
It disintigrated.
Why?
Beacuse England had lost it´s status as a super power.
And did not have the means to hold on to it all.
If england had accepted hitlers offer after the fall of france no one knows how long their colonial empire had lasted.

That is exactly why UK turned down German peace offers.

I think the peace offer would only work if America wasn't in the fight. So from 39' to 41' if Germany attacks England's mainland then a bitter peace could be formed. Cause in all honestly even if the British were on the ropes in their own country, I think they would prefer being a weaker independent nation rther then a puppet.

They would lose certain provinces, like the seuz canal, Gabraltier, and maybe eygpt (just to give the Italians something). The UK would keep its african Colonies, and its puppet nations, as well dominion nations. Of course afterwards events could occur so Germany could support colonies and puppet nations declaring independence. Like India asking the Germans for weapons to fight the defeated British empire.

 

[Kevyinus]

That is exactly why UK turned down German peace offers.

As it was said best by Niall Ferguson,

In 1940, under Churchills inspired, indomitable, incomparable leadership, the Empire had stood alone against the truly imperialism of Hitler. Even if it did not last 1000 years that Churchill hopefully suggested it might, this was indeed the British empire's finest hour.
Yet what made it so fine, so authentically noble, was that the Empire's victory could only have been Pyrrhic. In the end, the British sacrificed her Empire to stop the Germans, Japanese and Italians from keeping theirs.

 

[Wytchking]

I don't think it is so much the question if the Brits would accept a "bitter peace", but when .

At Dunkirk, some 350k Brits and French were evacuated from a fallen France. If these troops had been captured, Britain would have been without an army. A UK without any defence would naturally sign a peace, to safeguard its own independance, rather than suffer a total defeat and a correspondingly worse peacetreaty. As it were, the UK were terrified that Germany would invade in 1940, even after all their troops got home "safe and sound". If Operation Seelöve had been launched in 1940, the British would have surrendered. There should be no doubt about that.

If HOI2 Allows for a good Military Intelligence battle, as well as the ordinary ones, we could have events for a UK that surrenders when Sealion might possibly become a reality. Even if it does not, we could set up a few prerequisits:

France(vichy) = Axis
Oslo = Axis
Narvik = Axis

If it is possible I would even make the event Random, with a low percentage(say 1-5%?), and give Germany the possibility of increasing it by being focused against the UK.

+25% if Home GarrisonUK > 6 Divisions (No Dunkirk, no army, no chance)
+10% if Germany has won "Air Superiority Mission" over UK in the past 2 weeks (IRL Sealion got cancelled because Göring couldn't guarantee AS over UK before the winter weather made a channelcrossing impossible)
+25% if Germany has won a Naval Victory in the past 2 weeks (Britain has always relied upon Naval Superiority to defend them. If Germany can shatter this belief, the Peace party will be strong enough to voice serious concerns over current policy.)
+XX% if Germany has won any battles, or number of battles UK has lost against germany. EU has a counter like this, so I assume that HOI has one as well. (In the UK, people were worried that Germany might prove undeaftable, each successive victory strengthens that opinion)
+5% for each of the following occupied, Malta, Gibraltar, Cairo, Suez, Amman,
Belfast

What do you say, does a model like this sound feasible? Or better yet, possible in HoI2?

Wytchking
Waiting for HoI2

 

[Hardstuff]

I don't know if it should be a 'bitter' peace. Hitler wanted to end the war with Britain, he actually sent a plane over with whats-his-face, it was shot down and he was captured. The war went on. Hitler was desperate. There should be two, where Britain sues for peace (the 'bitter' one) and when Hitler sues for peace - where if that is chosen, Britain could just use that time to build up thier defences and strike! :rofl:

 

[unmerged(33970)]

I guess whether bitter peace will trigger depends on who is the leader of british than. The RAF did take out much of germany's planes but 1 instance hitler lost the war is because he did not take into consideration the fact that though Britain can continue to produce fighters but it is not easy to replace pilots. If hitler had concentrated on the assault, no one knows what will happen. The influx of radar technology and the capture of the german enigma machine as such also plays a part I guess.

Read that hitler did not want to enter a war so fast cause expected the allies to let germany roll over poland. Therefore when the allies declare war, he was shocked and after the battle of france which he did not expect to win so easily, he was lucky to have guderian and rommel who dare to act on their own. Being an infantryman in WW1, much of hitler's presumptions and experiences played a part in his downfall.

Number 1 instance is that he believe great Britain belongs to the Aryan, a one of his kind which the reason he did not attack it so fast. Also, it was said that hitler got no plans after France and so it was up to his generals who help to plan with his final opinion of course.

I hope that in HOI2 the British AI will recall all of the troops in India and use them to wack the axis. This will be fun. keke...all out for a great game.

Cheers

 

[Zanza]

I hope that in HOI2 the British AI will recall all of the troops in India and use them to wack the axis. This will be fun. keke...all out for a great game.

I hope that the Japanese AI will then conquer India in no time...

 

[Oscu]

I think if Germans would have conquerred the British Isles, Britain would be annexed and all puppets would become independent (not automatically at war with Germany) and all British provinces also become independent (India, Burma, African countries...).

All western allies get an event: Peace with Axis yes/no?

If US is not at war: War entry-80% (no beachead in Europe and nobody to pay the bills for the war, fasism supporters gain influence.) :German event we have completely influenced USA towards our...+ dissidence -10).

USSR event declare war aganist Axis yes/no.


And then there's a possibility for Patton's dream:
Maybe if Germans puppeted UK and US is not at war with Germany, there could be an event for US: Let's join Germans in crusade aganist communism. Both christian countries, who despise communism and before WWII people with german origins were much more visible...and if UK would not pay US to fight Germans they probably wouldn't have a problem with Germany (they didn't really know all the facts).

Just few ideas

 

[Zuckergußgebäck]

I don't know if it should be a 'bitter' peace. Hitler wanted to end the war with Britain, he actually sent a plane over with whats-his-face, it was shot down and he was captured.

In fact, Hess stole an aircraft and flew over to britiain, Hitler was furious.

 

[Galleblære]

I refuse to believe that the English people would ever have surrendered to a fascist dictator from the continent. Especially after the US entered the war. They know that if Britain falls, Europe is lost. They would never allow that to happen.

I refuse to believe that the English people are different than any other people or nation conquered by nazi-germany.

 

[unmerged(33619)]

In fact, Hess stole an aircraft and flew over to britiain, Hitler was furious.

According to Himmlers' journals Hitler only became angry after learning of Hess getting captured. Even though Hess went off on his own Hitler was fine with it, upon learning of the Hess's plan to meet peace sympthizors. Hess was going to meet an English Lord with ties to the King, and a few paraliment members. But Hess screwed up and was mistaken for a fighter pilot and captured, by all things, a farmer who joined the civil defense force.

So while I understand what people are saying about the British refusing to give up even in the most dire of circumstances. I think the British LEADERS are the ones who would refuse to waver. The people might not think of British spirit, and Churchill's speeches, when a Panzer rolls up the street.

So peace with England as an event could occur two ways to me:

1. General invasion of the British isles, after so much territory is taken the option of making England a puppet becomes availble.

2. After so many units are destroyed Germany offers to let the UK retain Independence. Say the B.E.F and so many planes are destroyed in France, then Germany can either send the peace offer, or keep going with the war.

 

[unmerged(30686)]

According to Himmlers' journals Hitler only became angry after learning of Hess getting captured. Even though Hess went off on his own Hitler was fine with it, upon learning of the Hess's plan to meet peace sympthizors. Hess was going to meet an English Lord with ties to the King, and a few paraliment members. But Hess screwed up and was mistaken for a fighter pilot and captured, by all things, a farmer who joined the civil defense force.

So while I understand what people are saying about the British refusing to give up even in the most dire of circumstances. I think the British LEADERS are the ones who would refuse to waver. The people might not think of British spirit, and Churchill's speeches, when a Panzer rolls up the street.

So peace with England as an event could occur two ways to me:

1. General invasion of the British isles, after so much territory is taken the option of making England a puppet becomes availble.

2. After so many units are destroyed Germany offers to let the UK retain Independence. Say the B.E.F and so many planes are destroyed in France, then Germany can either send the peace offer, or keep going with the war.

I agree. It's fairly well reported that Beaverbrook wanted peace. Maybe less well reported the riots that occurred by people made homeless during the blitz. The cover up during the V2's - putting them down to gas main explosions.

It could have happened - especially if something had happened to Churchill

 

[Hardstuff]

In fact, Hess stole an aircraft and flew over to britiain, Hitler was furious.

Really?... I don't know. I knew there was something about peace. Why would Hitler want to pro-long the western front?. Build up his forces... Protect his cities. Thats why, what you have said, has only made me unsure... :wacko:

 

[unmerged(12895)]

The British leadership, if dominated by Tories, could concievably put a peace faction into power. This peace faction would want (or tolerate) a) Vichy style independence, b) maintaining the Empire.

However, the Labor party would almost certainly not tolerate this situation; and, not tolerate it in an armed way with the support of the rest of the ruling class. Voila: Left Wing Radical Britain.

Britain pushed to the wall, without occupation, is very likely to see the revolution Orwell felt was in the air (cf: Penguin Letters), in order to continue fighting.

 

[unmerged(33970)]

Ermm..just want share that the Hess i read about is a fake as a doctor who examined him later after the war noticed that his body there was no battle wounds at all and that both hitler and hess were strict vegetarians, considering other poultry and meat stuffs impure but this hess they captured would eat almost anything.

It was seriously doubted about his identity and that it may just be another Nazi conspiracy whereby the real hess may be either killed or just went into seclusion for awhile while the 'captured hess' is at work.

With regards to a person like Adolf Hitler, there can be no compromise. Just like the way he phrased out his speech in the show 'Rise of Hitler' . He is a modern day dracula and back stabing is his forth.

keke...reminds me...will u invite Osama to your place and talk peace with him? (No offence but this is not possible.)

World peace.

Cheers

 

[unmerged(28992)]

There's a real overdose of British superhero theory here. I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm a big fan of the British Empire and have English, Scots, Irish and Welsh relatives being as I am a British Islands mongrel

So with that said...Britain was very close to making a deal with Germany following the fall of France. After Chamberlain left the Prime Ministership in disgrace following the outbreak of hostilities(so much for peace in our time etc) a quiet political battle was fought between Churchill, who as we know advocated unflinching opposition to Hitler regardless of the odds, and Lord Halifax who believed the fight was unwinable and favoured negotiating a peace agreement with Germany.

Luckily for our time line Churchill was the one who came out on top and became Prime Minister, but this is not necessarily the only option in HOI2 given that Halifax could have come to power instead.

If Halifax took the Prime Ministership he could well have tried to negotiate a deal in which Britain retained her Empire. This shouldn't have been too hard to do either since Hitler didn't want to fight Britain anyway, after all it was delaying his plans for the East.

And if Churchill won but Britain did much worse (say if Hitler hadn't switched from military targets during the initial air campaign in order to launch the idiotic Blitz on London and the UK lost the Battle of Britain) then he may have been pushed out and replaced by Halifax and then we get a deal again

Now I'm not saying this should be made easy for the German player but if you want to include a plausible option for the UK accepting a peace deal with Germany then this must be considered.

 

[Brentor]

One should not mix what a countries leaders say about the will to fight on and what the population is willing to suffer. Churchill is one of the greatest leaders in history, no doubt. But with an occupied England (which I doubt would have been possible to achieve), with the population suffering, I am sure there would have been a majority of people supporting, even demanding peace even with Hitler. There simply wouldn't have been another option.
Just think about the germans fighting to the last bullet as ordered by their leaders. And they too had to surrender in the end. I don't think they liked Stalin more, than the English like Hitler. But when there are no options, there are no options.
There will be always a few that keep fighting, this was the case in France and other occupied countries, but its the people that make up a country not some defiant individuals. Sometimes this unfortunately so.

So for the game, there should be a bitter peace for most countries. It will just be hard to find common agreement of the players on the conditions for most countries.


cheers,
Brentor

 

[unmerged(33619)]

Ermm..just want share that the Hess i read about is a fake as a doctor who examined him later after the war noticed that his body there was no battle wounds at all and that both hitler and hess were strict vegetarians, considering other poultry and meat stuffs impure but this hess they captured would eat almost anything.

It was seriously doubted about his identity and that it may just be another Nazi conspiracy whereby the real hess may be either killed or just went into seclusion for awhile while the 'captured hess' is at work.

Cheers

Ahh.... a conspricy theory. There were a few others, like how it wasn't Hess in the aircraft to begin with, and the British drugged him until his mind broke, he was killed by British agents in 1987. But the offical history goes like this......

During interrogation in a British Army barracks, Hess proposed that if the British would allow Nazi Germany to dominate Europe, then the British Empire would not be further molested by Hitler. He insisted that German victory was inevitable and even threatened that the British people would be starved to death by a Nazi blockade around the British Isles unless they accepted his generous peace offer.

But Hess also displayed signs of mental instability to his British captors and they concluded he was half mad and represented only himself. Churchill, realizing this, and somewhat infuriated by his statements, ordered Hess to be imprisoned for the duration and treated like any high ranking POW. Hess was declared insane by a bewildered Hitler, and effectively disowned by the Nazis. His flight ultimately caused Hitler and the Nazis huge embarrassment as they struggled to explain his actions. During his years of British imprisonment 1941-45, Hess displayed increasingly unstable behaviour and developed a paranoid obsession that his food was being poisoned. In 1945, he was returned to Germany to stand trial before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg.


In the courtroom, he suffered from spells of disorientation, staring off vacantly into space and for a time claimed to have amnesia. In periods of lucidity he continued to display loyalty to Hitler, ending with his final speech -
"It was granted me for many years to live and work under the greatest son whom my nation has brought forth in the thousand years of its history. Even if I could I would not expunge this period from my existence. I regret nothing. If I were standing once more at the beginning I should act once again as I did then, even if I knew that at the end I should be burnt at the stake…"

In spite of his mental condition he was sentenced to life in prison. The Soviets blocked all attempts at early release. He served his sentence in Spandau prison in Berlin, where from 1966 he was the sole inmate. Officially Hess died by suicide on 17th July 1987 aged 93, the last of the prisoners to be tried at Nuremberg.

I am in total agreement with Brentor and Maku, leaders may be strong but people are not. The reasons Russia lasted so long is not the unshakable Russian spirit but the NKVD gaurds behind the front lines to kill any one who tried to retreat. As for England it was not being invaded, and Churchil finding allies whereever he could.

 

[unmerged(33970)]

Sadly if one's families r taken hostage, alot of us got no choice but to move on in war....

Ahh.... a conspricy theory. There were a few others, like how it wasn't Hess in the aircraft to begin with, and the British drugged him until his mind broke, he was killed by British agents in 1987. But the offical history goes like this......

During interrogation in a British Army barracks, Hess proposed that if the British would allow Nazi Germany to dominate Europe, then the British Empire would not be further molested by Hitler. He insisted that German victory was inevitable and even threatened that the British people would be starved to death by a Nazi blockade around the British Isles unless they accepted his generous peace offer.

But Hess also displayed signs of mental instability to his British captors and they concluded he was half mad and represented only himself. Churchill, realizing this, and somewhat infuriated by his statements, ordered Hess to be imprisoned for the duration and treated like any high ranking POW. Hess was declared insane by a bewildered Hitler, and effectively disowned by the Nazis. His flight ultimately caused Hitler and the Nazis huge embarrassment as they struggled to explain his actions. During his years of British imprisonment 1941-45, Hess displayed increasingly unstable behaviour and developed a paranoid obsession that his food was being poisoned. In 1945, he was returned to Germany to stand trial before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg.


In the courtroom, he suffered from spells of disorientation, staring off vacantly into space and for a time claimed to have amnesia. In periods of lucidity he continued to display loyalty to Hitler, ending with his final speech -
"It was granted me for many years to live and work under the greatest son whom my nation has brought forth in the thousand years of its history. Even if I could I would not expunge this period from my existence. I regret nothing. If I were standing once more at the beginning I should act once again as I did then, even if I knew that at the end I should be burnt at the stake…"

In spite of his mental condition he was sentenced to life in prison. The Soviets blocked all attempts at early release. He served his sentence in Spandau prison in Berlin, where from 1966 he was the sole inmate. Officially Hess died by suicide on 17th July 1987 aged 93, the last of the prisoners to be tried at Nuremberg.

I am in total agreement with Brentor and Maku, leaders may be strong but people are not. The reasons Russia lasted so long is not the unshakable Russian spirit but the NKVD gaurds behind the front lines to kill any one who tried to retreat. As for England it was not being invaded, and Churchil finding allies whereever he could.

 

[Bucyrus]

I could see a stitaition where major VP's in the UK are taken mainland UK surrendering (bitter peace) and the commonwealth disintergrating.

Has anyone read the book 'SS-GB'? It painted a scenario where the UK has surrendered to Germany. In the book German forces has reached Whitehall and Britian surrendered with Churchill put in the tower of London.

It is a story about a Scotland Yard Inspector who has been absorbed into the Gestapo. Resistance went underground trying to entice the US into the war. The book ends with the US about to come into the war when they establish that the Germans are try in build the Bomb.

As a general point I couldn't see a defeated England in exile holding it's control over it's Empire. Irrespective of what Churchill may have said in a speech.

As a case in point, in the real WWII Australia pulled back the majority of it's Army and Airforce during 1942 from the Middle East to counter the growing threat from the Japanese in PNG - Enroute Churchill attempted to divert the forces to protect British India which he felt more important to the BRITISH war effort.

However the Australian government prevailed and ensured that they got home. This represented the depature point for Australian foreign and war policy and was the starting point Australia's alignment with the US.

I could not see any situation where the major nations of the Commonwealth would allow a potentially unrepresentative Govt in Exile determine it's policy - Canada may host them but it would not be controlled by it

 

[unmerged(30686)]

Sadly if one's families r taken hostage, alot of us got no choice but to move on in war....

Isn't that just self-evident?