Does anyone know if an event will be possible for England to sue for peace with Germany, much like the "bitter peace" with Russia, in HOI2?
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I don't know if there is one but I suppose it could be possible. Maybe if you take enough VP's and have a certain percentage of their industry destroyed 
look up the events folder. Think saw b4 the bitter peace sort of a german surrender but that was with the soviets...not too sure about it but was in CORE. Not sure about the HOI2.
cheers
cheers
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Consider Narvik
Narvik was a monster botch job, and before the National Government I believe.
Narvik caused the downfall of one PM, but not the Government. The Government maintained itself without due recourse to elections until 1945 and the war being won.
The UK would truely have to be on the ropes, and even then, the ropes just make the government change.
Expect this event stream.
Norway puppetted / Annexed > Fall of PM, National Government formed.
Loss of Suez & Gibralter / London > Fall of National Government, new National government formed under Labour. Labour government commits itself to the destruction of fascism on general principle.
Loss of North England industrial area / Scotland > Peace faction expelled from parliament. Labour commits itself to indefinate war. Government moves to colonial areas, possibly negotiates India's status moving to a puppet state for the duration of the anti-fa war, full independence afterwards. Possibility of GB-labour becoming Left-Wing Radical if the USSR is in the war.
Consider just how deep anti-fa ran in Labour. Consider too that parliamentarians would probably put the peace faction to the wall first. England losing is more likely to radicalise the Labour movement.
I'm not saying that the UK population wouldn't collaborate in hypothetical fantasy land. No European nation lacked collaborators. I'm just saying that the UK government would harden over time due to Labour's antifa policy, instead of weakening.
Any successful "truce" is a truce of GB exhaustion, without peace. The SU government under Stalin is more likely to grab what it can and run if pushed to the wall. The GB is more likely harden under Labour and to hope for the SU, US and Dominions to save them.
Narvik was a monster botch job, and before the National Government I believe.
Narvik caused the downfall of one PM, but not the Government. The Government maintained itself without due recourse to elections until 1945 and the war being won.
The UK would truely have to be on the ropes, and even then, the ropes just make the government change.
Expect this event stream.
Norway puppetted / Annexed > Fall of PM, National Government formed.
Loss of Suez & Gibralter / London > Fall of National Government, new National government formed under Labour. Labour government commits itself to the destruction of fascism on general principle.
Loss of North England industrial area / Scotland > Peace faction expelled from parliament. Labour commits itself to indefinate war. Government moves to colonial areas, possibly negotiates India's status moving to a puppet state for the duration of the anti-fa war, full independence afterwards. Possibility of GB-labour becoming Left-Wing Radical if the USSR is in the war.
Consider just how deep anti-fa ran in Labour. Consider too that parliamentarians would probably put the peace faction to the wall first. England losing is more likely to radicalise the Labour movement.
I'm not saying that the UK population wouldn't collaborate in hypothetical fantasy land. No European nation lacked collaborators. I'm just saying that the UK government would harden over time due to Labour's antifa policy, instead of weakening.
Any successful "truce" is a truce of GB exhaustion, without peace. The SU government under Stalin is more likely to grab what it can and run if pushed to the wall. The GB is more likely harden under Labour and to hope for the SU, US and Dominions to save them.
Fenwick said:
Of course such an event is possible, in fact, it's probably already in CORE for HoI.
Thanks guys.
I remeber reading how Hitler sent hints about a ceasefire between Germany and the UK. UK would keep its empire and colonies, but only if they recognized German control of the continent. The british were quick to realize that their Empire remained strong due to Englands involvment in European politics, and most importantly trade.
But back to the topic, I want this event to be somewhere. Cause I refuse to believe that the English people would keep fighting if the German army took over 3/4's of the island.
I remeber reading how Hitler sent hints about a ceasefire between Germany and the UK. UK would keep its empire and colonies, but only if they recognized German control of the continent. The british were quick to realize that their Empire remained strong due to Englands involvment in European politics, and most importantly trade.
But back to the topic, I want this event to be somewhere. Cause I refuse to believe that the English people would keep fighting if the German army took over 3/4's of the island.
Fenwick said:
I refuse to believe that the English people would ever have surrendered to a fascist dictator from the continent. Especially after the US entered the war. They know that if Britain falls, Europe is lost. They would never allow that to happen.
If London was taken by Germany, I find it hard to belive that Great Britain would not have accepted a separete peace. Of course, some factors need to be taking into account, like for example if Germany offered a honourable peace (rather than simply puppeting ) and whether or not the USA had actually joined the war at this time. The strength of the British armed forces in the home islands could also be a factor to be taken into account...
) and whether or not the USA had actually joined the war at this time. The strength of the British armed forces in the home islands could also be a factor to be taken into account...
I think a separate peace was possible, but not the most likely result. Make it the (b) option in the event.
If you have a series of events, make it the (b) option in all of them!
Steve.
If you have a series of events, make it the (b) option in all of them!
Steve.
Remember that the last successful invasion of the British Isles took place in 1066. Against the Spanish and against Napoleon being an island helped immensely, the British could feel relatively safe behind the Channel. Now imagine that the Britsih isles were taken after a successful Sealion ... it would be shocking enough to have one's homecountry occupied ... let alone an island-fortress that had been impregnable for 900 years ...
if 80+% of the British population had to live under german rule don't you think surrender wouldn't have been contemplated ? Of course there could have been an exiled goverment in Canada, like the French and the Polish ones in London ... but I don't think that course of events would have been inevitable ... depending on wether the big-brother of the US is in the war, on whether the colonial possessions were cut-off etc. I can imagine a scenario in which a Bitter Peace West could have fired ...
To put it in other words: Do you believe that IRL Barbarossa could have ended in a Bitter Peace before the front-line had crossed the Urals ? I don't (it was a total war afterall) but every nation has a breakling point ... it might be higher for the British but it is there ...
edit: In answer to the original question: if a Bitter Peace West is not included in vanilla HI2 then it certainly will turn up in one of the mods ...
edit: what about a Bitter Peace for Axis-powers ? I.e. Japan loses Philipines and Home-Island and then surrenders or Germany's national borders are crossed in the east and the West ... or even Axis&Allies take on the SU ...
if 80+% of the British population had to live under german rule don't you think surrender wouldn't have been contemplated ? Of course there could have been an exiled goverment in Canada, like the French and the Polish ones in London ... but I don't think that course of events would have been inevitable ... depending on wether the big-brother of the US is in the war, on whether the colonial possessions were cut-off etc. I can imagine a scenario in which a Bitter Peace West could have fired ...
To put it in other words: Do you believe that IRL Barbarossa could have ended in a Bitter Peace before the front-line had crossed the Urals ? I don't (it was a total war afterall) but every nation has a breakling point ... it might be higher for the British but it is there ...
edit: In answer to the original question: if a Bitter Peace West is not included in vanilla HI2 then it certainly will turn up in one of the mods ...
edit: what about a Bitter Peace for Axis-powers ? I.e. Japan loses Philipines and Home-Island and then surrenders or Germany's national borders are crossed in the east and the West ... or even Axis&Allies take on the SU ...
steveh11 said:I think a separate peace was possible, but not the most likely result. Make it the (b) option in the event.
If you have a series of events, make it the (b) option in all of them!
Steve.
If the event option-choice for the A.I. works the same way as it does in HOI1 that is the way to go ...
but I seriously hope that the chance of one of the options being chosen can be altered in a parameter-file ...
something like:
option A: 33 %
option B: 33 %
option C: 33 %
should be possible as well
My guess is that an occupation of the Britisch home Isles would result in setting up a puppet state like Vichy and unite Europe into an anti-Bolsjewik alliance - perhaps those puppets could also be Ireland an Scotland and occupying England - don't know
seems most logical when you consider the situation early 1940's. And remember - we know Hitlers as the "ultimate evil", but early WWII Hitler was just one of those dictators ... that claimed that the world was ruled by others etc...
seems most logical when you consider the situation early 1940's. And remember - we know Hitlers as the "ultimate evil", but early WWII Hitler was just one of those dictators ... that claimed that the world was ruled by others etc...
The Paradox'd be do an event like Vichy also for England:
With the Britain mainland occupy by Axis
British legitimate Governement in Scotland
Ulster to EIRE if Axis
India became indipendent
Egypt & Middle East to Italy (if Axis) or Germany
Former German Colony to German?
South Afrika to Axis?
Canada/New Zealand/Australia Usa's "puppet" if USA Allies or remain in the Allies
Asia to Japan (if Axis)
With the Britain mainland occupy by Axis
British legitimate Governement in Scotland
Ulster to EIRE if Axis
India became indipendent
Egypt & Middle East to Italy (if Axis) or Germany
Former German Colony to German?
South Afrika to Axis?
Canada/New Zealand/Australia Usa's "puppet" if USA Allies or remain in the Allies
Asia to Japan (if Axis)
I don't see england having a bitter peace.
If Britain is occupied maybe the english would accept a separate peace if they keep independant, if germany tried to puppet them they would have gone to the colonies and continued the war
If Britain is occupied maybe the english would accept a separate peace if they keep independant, if germany tried to puppet them they would have gone to the colonies and continued the war
Remember Churchills speach,
Also remember the Germans actually admired the British, and always wanted to ally with us.
Also remember the Germans actually admired the British, and always wanted to ally with us.
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Kevyinus said:
The government did AFAIK, dunno about the population ... they were pretty elitist ... (in other words full of themselves)
btw.: Luv your sig, I was thinking about putting a Humpy-quote in mine. Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister is just full of funny but accurate commentary on world politics like that. I hope the beeb brings out YPM on DVD soon
Fenwick said:
I most suerly dissagre.
What happened to Englands colonial empire after ww2?
It disintigrated.
Why?
Beacuse England had lost it´s status as a super power.
And did not have the means to hold on to it all.
If england had accepted hitlers offer after the fall of france no one knows how long their colonial empire had lasted.
Instead we got 2 new superpowers (USSR & USA) while all others declined to second string ones.
What would the world have looked like if britain surendered and the USA had held on to their isolianism?
Would anyone come to the aid of USSR when Hitler invaded?
Dun think so.
No one liked Stalin. And why go to war to protect communism?
But Britain was like it is still. Head strong and stuborn.
(dun get me wrong i like british people or some of them anyways and im no facist)
Demagog said:
Not really.. we still held vast parts of Africa and Asia into the 1960's. The fact the Empire collapsed was the rising Nationalism around the Empire, and the spiraling out of control of Defence costs to keep it under our control. Britain was bankrupt and mostly in ruins and heavily in debt with the USA after World War I, then with the vast Welfare System we introduced which cost billions to administer. Then the fact that we had signed the United Nations charter on decolonialisation, so when we were not wanted by the people of that colony, we withdrew. It had nothing to do with our superpower status. The fact if we had kept it we might still be a super power.