Bit disappointed...

[Maizel]

Yeah, I'd like to support the viewpoint that putting cosmetic content into day-1 DLCs is a good thing. To me, personally, unit models have a value of $0. I am grateful that Paradox chooses to cater to consumers like me and rather than forcing us to buy the game at the higher price it offers a discounted version with these taken out. I'm a stingy f**k and I'll happily take them up on this offer. Meanwhile, the artists etc. have done a lot of hard work and deserve to be paid, because not everyone is an unaesthetic troglodyte like me, who would have switched the sprites off anyhow. This model has clearly increased consumers' level of choice as to which content to buy and I applaud it.

Or, you know, they could have just put those into the game? I can see the merits in the viewpoint that a few extra dollars for a few models is no big deal. But I think that goes both ways. Putting them into the base game wouldn't have been such a big a deal either. Paradox just chose those few extra dollars.

 

[Mandraug]

Hm... looks like a case of glass half-empty/full. What you call the "base" game is to me the "stripped down and discounted" game. To me, the "base" game includes that content and costs the corresponding amount. I can choose to buy the game without these, though, at a discount. Since they literally have no value to me, I win. I would have gained nothing from them being in the "discounted"/"base" game. You appear to want them--and I'm happy I don't have to pay for that fact.

 

[Mutagen_Prime]

I have no time for people complaining about herr Paradox providing us with optional accessory aesthetic DLC packs when the same said developer are also providing the community with the necessary tools to create and distribute their own versions of said content and then some with free ulterior mod/3D modelling tools. Why not take a chill pill and buy the cadet version of the game, play it, and then come back in two months when the community has created models and national foci packs for virtually every objectively meaningful sovereign nation in Hearts of Iron IV anyway?

tl;dr:
Mods are your friend, friend.

 

[radic202]

I never play the game up close enough for the Sprites to be seen. So in other words I could not care less about the Sprites nor do I need or want them. All great to those who want them but for me to pay extra just to have them is wasted money. Nonetheless it would be nice to have every Sprite included at one price that includes the game as for me Sprites are part of the game whether you use them or not!

Yep, sometimes I feel EA has soured other gaming companies into making money out of basically nothing. Again to each their own!

 

[Liely1710]

This is important. It's a $40 game, I'm pretty sure everyone was expecting $60, because that's what most games go for these days. It's essentially being released for a price it wouldn't have gone for during the Winter Sale on Steam this year. I for one am extremely happy about that. To the point where even finding out that I could have gotten it for 25% off doesn't bother me that much.

To add on top of that. its a $40 game thats been in development, RE-development, polishing, QA, and intensive bug hunts.

Lets remember this game would've been $40 2 years ago when it was first suppose to be released. and its still being sold at $40 today.

so in between first announced release date and the June 6th release date. they COULD'VE been making money, but decided to hold off on it and make it a better more polished game, all the while, incurring more development costs.

 

[Maizel]

To add on top of that. its a $40 game thats been in development, RE-development, polishing, QA, and intensive bug hunts.

Lets remember this game would've been $40 2 years ago when it was first suppose to be released. and its still being sold at $40 today.

so in between first announced release date and the June 6th release date. they COULD'VE been making money, but decided to hold off on it and make it a better more polished game, all the while, incurring more development costs.

Not releasing a game before it is ready is something developers aught to do. It is not a gift to their players. Something they should have done with Stellaris, for example. Sectors do not work right..AI is non-existent. Ship Balance is horrible. Three core aspects of the game. Yet people seem to think it is perfectly normal that the game gets released with these things essentially broken.Some even try to defend it. I cannot wrap my head around it.

Developers should not get praise when they release a game when it is fit to be released; this is what they shóúld do with every game. They should get due condemnation when they release it too early, though. I cannot fathom how people can think that getting a relatively bug free game is somehow a concession that the developers were kind enough to bestow upon us players.

I am happy they did postpone HoI for a year. But I will not give them unending praise because they realized the game was not ready for release.

 

[columbusbobby23]

I'm glad this thread was open. I have the same concerns as the OP does. But I find some of the viewpoints in this thread to be flawed in my opinion. The argument that these units are purely cosmetic and don't effect the gameplay just rubs me the wrong way. Immersion is very important when it come to games like this. For some players these units are completely unnecessary, while others can't get enough of them and it adds to their immersion and flavor. But if you go with the "cosmetic stuff doesn't really matter" argument then where do you draw that line? Loading screens don't matter? I mean you could play the game perfectly well without having to look at beautiful art while you're waiting for the game to load, right? A shiny new user interface doesn't matter as long as you can click where you need to click, right? And that's not to say anything about having a beautiful map to look at. Cosmetic details are and always will be important.

Another viewpoint is saying that PDS could have charged $50 for the base game+extra unit models and we wouldn't be talking about this at all. I think if they had done that we would have 20 threads open with people complaining about the increased cost for a Paradox game and asking why they have to wait so long for a game and pay extra for all that waiting. It's hard to believe there wouldn't be at least some dissent on the subject.

@Liely1710, You bring up the point that they could have released the game at the first release date. But based on what people said about the game during the multiplayer event 6 months after the first release date, the reviews would have been terrible and while PDS would have benefited in the short term with it's sales, it would have hurt them(And us) in the long run.

I think this day 1 DLC(Lets face it guys, that's what this is) will at the very least slightly hurt Paradox in their future endeavors. If say two years from now they have a highly anticipated game in development and for one reason or another it gets delayed, instead of people thinking that the guys over there are working like busy little bees trying to get the game out the door and adding a crap ton of new things to the game, they might think that half of the devs are instead building extra content for the first few DLC's to sell to customers further down the line.

I would have liked to see the unit models be part of the base game they were made for or at most be an incentive to preorder the game. When you preorder a game, you are essentially saying that you trust the company to provide a good product and you are willing to go out on a limb and pay first based on that trust. But to pay first and pay extra for unit models made while the game was in delayed development is just heartbreaking for me.

 

[Liely1710]

Not releasing a game before it is ready is something developers aught to do. It is not a gift to their players. Something they should have done with Stellaris, for example. Sectors do not work right..AI is non-existent. Ship Balance is horrible. Three core aspects of the game. Yet people seem to think it is perfectly normal that the game gets released with these things essentially broken.Some even try to defend it. I cannot wrap my head around it.

Developers should not get praise when they release a game when it is fit to be released; this is what they shóúld do with every game. They should get due condemnation when they release it too early, though. I cannot fathom how people can think that getting a relatively bug free game is somehow a concession that the developers were kind enough to bestow upon us players.

I am happy they did postpone HoI for a year. But I will not give them unending praise because they realized the game was not ready for release.

I am speaking from a business perspective. Yes, to the customers, they do a disservice to us when they release it too early. but from a business management perspective. When do you cut your losses? When development costs exceeds expected revenue from game, it make sense to not continue development, QA, bug fixes, etc.

Rather it makes sense to opt for a release with issues "on time" but with bugs that will get fixed along the life of the game, rather than continue incurring costs and either eat those costs or find other ways to bring in more revenue than what was expected. (I.e. higher price, more DLC content, etc.)

This way, you have revenue to offset those additional developmental costs. and you have a better projection of revenue for the next year or so. Yes, this will anger players, but I firmly believe Paradox has never been the company to leave a game high and dry shortly after launch. Not praising them at all because they simply delayed a game for an unheard amount of time. But because of their company mantra, their past work performance on previous games, their core values as a company, and because of their CEO and management team being supportive and active in both the community and within their development team.

I don't trust that HoI IV will be a great game because of how long its been in development, anybody can take 3 years and still make a crap game. I trust Paradox because the company has proven itself past the release date of games.

I mean, who goes back to patch Vic 2? A game that's been out for years.

 

[favonius]

Because 99% of the time the artists are finished with their work before the programmers and QA testers are so instead of just laying off artists to save money they put them to work making ADDITIONAL cosmetic content to sell.

"Well why don't they just add that content to the base game?"

Because as a business if you have employees not making you money you're wasting money. That content only exists because they made the decision to keep artists on staff to make that content.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Day 1 DLC and pre-orders are incentives. It's all normal practice in today's video game market. So get used to it.

 

[Maizel]

Because 99% of the time the artists are finished with their work before the programmers and QA testers are so instead of just laying off artists to save money they put them to work making ADDITIONAL cosmetic content to sell.

"Well why don't they just add that content to the base game?"

Because as a business if you have employees not making you money you're wasting money. That content only exists because they made the decision to keep artists on staff to make that content.

Probably good answers to the questions you put.

Still doesn;t mean we have to like it or just meekly accept it without comment.

'Because Paradox is in the business of making money' has no bearing on anything, for anyone, unless they got stakes in the company.

Day 1 DLC and pre-orders are incentives. It's all normal practice in today's video game market. So get used to it.

And how did it become normal practice, I wonder?

 

[elessar90]

I'm glad this thread was open. I have the same concerns as the OP does. But I find some of the viewpoints in this thread to be flawed in my opinion. The argument that these units are purely cosmetic and don't effect the gameplay just rubs me the wrong way. Immersion is very important when it come to games like this. For some players these units are completely unnecessary, while others can't get enough of them and it adds to their immersion and flavor. But if you go with the "cosmetic stuff doesn't really matter" argument then where do you draw that line? Loading screens don't matter? I mean you could play the game perfectly well without having to look at beautiful art while you're waiting for the game to load, right? A shiny new user interface doesn't matter as long as you can click where you need to click, right? And that's not to say anything about having a beautiful map to look at. Cosmetic details are and always will be important.

Another viewpoint is saying that PDS could have charged $50 for the base game+extra unit models and we wouldn't be talking about this at all. I think if they had done that we would have 20 threads open with people complaining about the increased cost for a Paradox game and asking why they have to wait so long for a game and pay extra for all that waiting. It's hard to believe there wouldn't be at least some dissent on the subject.

@Liely1710, You bring up the point that they could have released the game at the first release date. But based on what people said about the game during the multiplayer event 6 months after the first release date, the reviews would have been terrible and while PDS would have benefited in the short term with it's sales, it would have hurt them(And us) in the long run.

I think this day 1 DLC(Lets face it guys, that's what this is) will at the very least slightly hurt Paradox in their future endeavors. If say two years from now they have a highly anticipated game in development and for one reason or another it gets delayed, instead of people thinking that the guys over there are working like busy little bees trying to get the game out the door and adding a crap ton of new things to the game, they might think that half of the devs are instead building extra content for the first few DLC's to sell to customers further down the line.

I would have liked to see the unit models be part of the base game they were made for or at most be an incentive to preorder the game. When you preorder a game, you are essentially saying that you trust the company to provide a good product and you are willing to go out on a limb and pay first based on that trust. But to pay first and and pay extra for unit models made while the game was in delayed development is just heartbreaking for me.

Just one thing. Developers made the game. Not content. It's content designers field.
If I understand correctly (I could cuz I am developer, bot in Paradox suddenly) programmers have a lot of tickets, far more than designers / artists / etc.
So, technically __half of the team__ working on DLCs now. But who cares? You can't just release all the interface with a ton of script/engine bugs...

I like to compare WWW one to another, seeing how game is changing. But let's look closer: there are many of interface changes, small script fixes and rules, what you see. But A LOT of hidden work on the AI, performance, compatibility, options and so on.
Designers are making content (such Poland NF Tree), programmers are polishing game in parallel. I see nothing wrong here. Paradox give us a beautiful game at least.

 

[favonius]

'Because Paradox is in the business of making money' has no bearing on anything, for anyone, unless they got stakes in the company.

Paradox being in the business of making money is the entire reason the pre-order cosmetic content exists in the first place. If Paradox didn't think they could make money by selling it the would never have kept the artists on staff to make it.

 

[Maizel]

Paradox being in the business of making money is the entire reason the pre-order cosmetic content exists in the first place. If Paradox didn't think they could make money by selling it the would never have kept the artists on staff to make it.

Yes, I agree.

My point was more that people don't, or maybe shouldn;t accept any and all business practices just because Paradox is a company out to make money. Their interest are not ours. As a consumer you are on the other side of the counter.

 

[columbusbobby23]

Because 99% of the time the artists are finished with their work before the programmers and QA testers are so instead of just laying off artists to save money they put them to work making ADDITIONAL cosmetic content to sell.

How could they have been finished when there were still heavy cruisers and tanks to be made? My issue is if you are still working on the game than the content you are making for it should be put in. After the game is released and you still want to add to the game then by all means, DLC the crap out of it. My point is PDS should want to make a game as great as they can make it. DLC at one time was supposed to be something that a game developer could add into the game because they didn't have the time to put it in while it was under development. Not to be used to make more money by withholding content that was made when your artists didn't have anything else to do.

We all like Paradox and their games, otherwise we wouldn't be here. But Paradox has always done things their own way in the past. So we as customers and lovers of PDS games should never be okay with it when it looks like they might start adopting crappy business practices of other less reputable companies. We do ourselves a disservice when we say "Well that's just how the video game world works now" or "Paradox is a business first".

People don't buy their games based on their quarterly income reports.

 

[JakeCourtney]

Well, I think Paradox knows now with this expansion pass that they have to pull out all the stops and make these next two expansions really good. Otherwise people will be less likely to buy any future expansion passes.

 

[gmgriffith]

I love paradox, they have been great to their community and stood by their games with tons of excellent post-release content. That's why when I say in the top that I'm a bit disappointed, that's what I mean. I would think as a company they would want their games to be the best possible creations they can be at launch, with as much content as they can get in without spending too much time or being unrealistic. In this case they have fleshed out models for many tanks and ships used by the major powers in the game, but rather than include it in purchase they've made it into a day 1 DLC, or perhaps worse, a preorder version incentive, and hence I'm a bit disappointed.

Those models would add to the immersion and feel of the core game, withholding them for money just feels like a money grab at release, and not something I would have expected from Paradox.

 

[calebmarkle]

I think the cosmetic thing is paradoxes method of being able to increase prices like every other company is doing while not raising it past the price point of people. They could easily increase the price of the base game by 10 dollars and include the cosmetic dlc all this would achieve though is knock it out of the pricepoint of a small percentage of people. What it would do is essentially make people from poorer background not able to afford it and it would have 0 effect on the wealthier people who can afford it and don't have a problem with it.

Also the field marshall version is largely the people who are addicted to paradox games and were like ya I'd buy HOI4 for any price they posted even if its a hundred bucks I don't care these are the only games I buy

TLDR: Look at HOI4 extra cost version with cosmetic dlc as the base game and base cost. The one without the cosmetic dlc is the HOI4 Lite version that is cheaper at the expense of cosmetics. Its a good policy that helps the poorer paradox fans and makes more able to afford it

 

[griffor]

Yeah, I'd like to support the viewpoint that putting cosmetic content into day-1 DLCs is a good thing. To me, personally, unit models have a value of $0. I am grateful that Paradox chooses to cater to consumers like me and rather than forcing us to buy the game at the higher price it offers a discounted version with these taken out. I'm a stingy f**k and I'll happily take them up on this offer. Meanwhile, the artists etc. have done a lot of hard work and deserve to be paid, because not everyone is an unaesthetic troglodyte like me, who would have switched the sprites off anyhow. This model has clearly increased consumers' level of choice as to which content to buy and I applaud it.

yep i'm definitely the kind of guy who spends hours looking at the models rather than playing

 

[VampiRos]

legal keyseller, the 2nd edition(with sprites) 40€. So it's the normal price there...

FM Edition, whoever can afford this, buy it. I can't buy it but i would. So i have to buy the expansions(that i will buy for sure) seperately. I will not be charged 90€ now, but in the end i will pay this 90 € through approx 6-12 months...