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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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Will we be able to appoint our own? And lead to the Investiture Conflict?

Or will it just be a dry event where some relations are lowered and some temporary CBs handed around?
 

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somewhere in the N-I
Oct 17, 2000
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maybe through the right to veto bishop appointments that are not very loyal to you. you veto and the see is vacant until your reach an agreement with the Papacy. you can threat the Papacy and the other way round.

- in order that you could negotiate with the Papacy the player needs a pool of candidates
- if not the case, you simply say yes/no to the AI candidates.

the difficult point is that historically the 'right of presentation' was in some periods/realms at the king/Duke's hand and in others at the Papacy's.
not easy to handle. maybe you can allow the right of vetoing presentation to major kingdoms.
Paradox guys must have having fun reading us agonising about the exact meaning of three pieces of info they have given to us so far.
"Exegesis", very medieval, though:D
 
Mar 19, 2001
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I believe there should be some laws and decrees that alter the rules of the game. The Emperor/King/Duke should be able to decree how for instnace the clergy is appointed, but convening the Court/Reichstag and have the nobility decide on this could prevent the violent consequences of acting unilaterally. Seek to gain the loyalty of nobles in order to get them vote as you wish them to on a certain measure. The nobility will equally try to gain more power, for instance by asking for financial privileges or making the accession to the throne in question electoral, rather than hereditary.

Now that would be great. Have to fight the Pope, Nobility, sometimes also burghers and peasants on certain measures. The Investiture issue would certainly be one of those political issues.
 

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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Another question I forgot about - will bishops be vassals? I believe there were some in this situation although I can only think of Odo of Bayeaux and I'm not real sure of him.:)
 

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Knight of Naught
Dec 16, 2000
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Originally posted by Sonny
Another question I forgot about - will bishops be vassals? I believe there were some in this situation although I can only think of Odo of Bayeaux and I'm not real sure of him.:)

Like the Archbishop Princes that were in power in places like Bremen and Cologne (among others) :D)?
 

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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Originally posted by Doc


Like the Archbishop Princes that were in power in places like Bremen and Cologne (among others) :D)?

Yeah, those guys - still can't remember any names though. :)
 

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Captain
Dec 4, 2001
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Bishops as vassals; thats the real rub in the Investiture Conflict. The Ottonian Kings/Emperors (919-1024) decided their only counterweight against the great nobility was the Church.

First of all, a Bishopric was not hereditary, so any lands/wealth they accumulated would not contribute to creating a powerful dynasty that could challenge the royal family for the throne. This also let the King install a loyal candidate of his own choice every time the office became vacant, whereas with the nobility, their heirs expected to inherit their fiefs and revolted if the King interfered.

Second, the Church tended to view the Kingdom & Empire as a whole, ie, they promoted unity, whereas the nobility were loyal to the tribe (Franconians, Swabians, Saxons, Bavarians) and/or their own interests. The clergy was also educated, and so made much better administrators and officials than some guy reared and trained to do nothing but make war. There were a host of other reasons which I wont bore you with, but suffice it to say that the Crown enfieffed the Church on a large scale in order to offset the great Dukes.

In the Emperor's eyes, a Bishop who held Imperial lands was definitely a vassal because those lands belonged to him. But to the Pope, the Bishops were HIS men, and should only be invested by him. You see the problem here.

So all 6 of the German Archbishops were vassals of the Crown, as well as a host of Bishops, and they all owed the Emperor military service. Any Bishop referred to as a "Prince" held land from the King and so in his eyes was a vassal; and thats why he refused to give up the right of investiture. Henry V stated the obvious; as long as those guys hold MY land, they are MY vassals. If they give me all that land back, I will release them from vassalhood. The Pope agreed in theory; but the problem was that the Bishops didnt because they LIKED being princes instead of preachers; they liked being rich, they liked leading armies, they liked being politically powerful...so a great many German, Italian, & Burgundian prelates sided with the Emperor against the Pope and urged him not to sell them out...

So for example, Odo de Bayeux was not a vassal because he was Bishop of Bayeux, but because he held fiefs from the King in addition to being Bishop! So as Bishop he was subject to the Pope; but as Earl of Kent, he was a vassal of the King. But generally speaking, this phenomenon was never as widespread in England and France as it was in the Empire (Germany, Italy, & Burgundy).
 
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Imperator Universalis
May 4, 2002
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True, that would make playing HRE very challenging when have to face those elements. Look at how nobles revolt at any of the Emperors who tried to unite HRE. Also, Pope and Emperor had been a rival. Maybe, if Emperor listen to Pope, relation heighen but if Pope bypass Pope then go down, the rlationship.
 

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Captain
Dec 4, 2001
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You may be right. I think the problem with the "Emperor listening to the Pope" stems from the fact that the Ottos and the first 2 Salians virtually controlled the Papacy and treated it just like any other Imperial bishopric, installing & deposing Popes at will. So by the time Henries IV & V & the Hohenstaufen came around, the Emperors had grown accustomed to exercizing these rights and refused to believe things had changed...
 

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Imperator Universalis
May 4, 2002
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Yeah, that is true, but it does not mean that Emperor will ignore the advice, or suggestion. Like Pope calling the crusade, Emperor can listen to Pope or ignore.
 

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Captain
Dec 4, 2001
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Right you are. They did agree on the need for Crusades. And if I remember correctly, Barbarossa and the Pope teamed up to tame the Romans (1154), and even before that, Lothair & Conrad sided with the Papacy against the Normans. I just wonder how that will be handled in the game? Damn, I cant wait to see this thing...