Hey, Bishops couldn't marry. It's ok to have lustful priests with lovers, bastard kids, etc.. but not a formal marriage.
Bishops getting married?
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Agreed, people have also noticed the Pope getting married. I understand that celibacy might not have been the law of the land across all of Europe at the game start, but the game goes on to the 15th century...im kind of confused how this made it into the game.
Actually there were married bishops. In the first 1200 years of the Church’s existence, priests, bishops and 39 popes were married. In the eleventh century, the attacks against the married priesthood grew in intensity.
In 1074, Pope Gregory VII legislated that anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy. Continuing his attack against women, he publicly stated that "...the Church cannot escape from the clutches of the laity unless priests first escape the clutches of their wives. In the year 1095, there was an escalation of brutal force against married priests and their families. Pope Urban II ordered that married priests who ignored the celibacy laws be imprisoned for the good of their souls. He had the wives and children of those married priests sold into slavery, and the money went to church coffers. The effort to consolidate church power in the medieval hierarchy and to seize the land assets the married priest families saw its victory in 1139. The legislation that effectively ended optional celibacy for priests came from the Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II.
Despite this in the fourteenth century Bishop Pelagio complained that women were still ordained and hearing confessions. In the fifteen century it was estimated that over 50% of priests were married.
In 1074, Pope Gregory VII legislated that anyone to be ordained must first pledge celibacy. Continuing his attack against women, he publicly stated that "...the Church cannot escape from the clutches of the laity unless priests first escape the clutches of their wives. In the year 1095, there was an escalation of brutal force against married priests and their families. Pope Urban II ordered that married priests who ignored the celibacy laws be imprisoned for the good of their souls. He had the wives and children of those married priests sold into slavery, and the money went to church coffers. The effort to consolidate church power in the medieval hierarchy and to seize the land assets the married priest families saw its victory in 1139. The legislation that effectively ended optional celibacy for priests came from the Second Lateran Council under Pope Innocent II.
Despite this in the fourteenth century Bishop Pelagio complained that women were still ordained and hearing confessions. In the fifteen century it was estimated that over 50% of priests were married.
Yes, priests actually abiding the rule of celibacy is a luxury we've only recently "enjoyed".
Let's not forget the Borgia pope with his cohort of bastard children.
Let's not forget the Borgia pope with his cohort of bastard children.
It sure seems like this shouldn't be a regular part of the game. There should at least be some sort of effect for clergy members that are married, right now it treats then like normal characters, which seems like an oversight, not a WAD feature.
Complete opposite; unless the clergy has the celibate trait, they should be getting married as that was normal back then.
Well the Great schism occurred in 1054. The orthodox church always had married priests. With respect to the west the pope clearly said prior to the second Lateran Council that many priests were in "deplorable situations," and in 1139, the Second Lateran Council forbade the marriage of priests altogether and declared all existing marriages involving priests null and void.
After that decision the 1139 law did not enact celibacy but merely changed marriage into concubinage. A document on celibacy prepared by church historian Hubert Jedin for the Second Vatican Council:
"It would be a mistake to imagine that these permanent concubines, especially in the countryside, would have aroused a lot of scandal," said Jedin. "We know of many cases where these `keepers of concubines' possessed the sympathies of their parishioners and were looked upon as good and virtuous pastors."
When the Reformation indirectly brought forth the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's, the Roman Catholic Church reformed itself and remodeled the priesthood to its present form. Not only did the Council reiterate the Church's prohibition of a married clergy but also instituted reforms to try to insure the implementation of the decrees of the Church on this subject.
After that decision the 1139 law did not enact celibacy but merely changed marriage into concubinage. A document on celibacy prepared by church historian Hubert Jedin for the Second Vatican Council:
"It would be a mistake to imagine that these permanent concubines, especially in the countryside, would have aroused a lot of scandal," said Jedin. "We know of many cases where these `keepers of concubines' possessed the sympathies of their parishioners and were looked upon as good and virtuous pastors."
When the Reformation indirectly brought forth the Council of Trent in the mid 1500's, the Roman Catholic Church reformed itself and remodeled the priesthood to its present form. Not only did the Council reiterate the Church's prohibition of a married clergy but also instituted reforms to try to insure the implementation of the decrees of the Church on this subject.
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A book I read called "History of the Church in the Middle Ages". I can get you the author when I get home.
I like Wikipedia, I really do, but it doesen't offer comprehensive analysis on obscure subjects.
ok how about this idea, celibate characters can't wed, and when you're given some sort of bishop type title you're given the celibate trait, but can lose it threw events, and become one of the rarer bishops who indeed have wives and family, they could follow up with a few events regarding the marraige and such through out the bishops lifetime, just to ensure he doesn't get a free ticket.
As far as I recall, no Popes married after obtaining the pontificate. Bishops, too, were generally unmarried. I'd like to see sources on the routine marriage, not concubinage which, however much the parties no doubt loved and respected one another, is wholly different for the (property) purposes of CK II marriage, of bishops, archbishops and cardinals.
I can only assume this is a bug. There's no way you can model the middle ages with married bishops and popes producing offspring who purportedly can at least serve as pretenders to their fathers' ecclesiastical seats.
I can only assume this is a bug. There's no way you can model the middle ages with married bishops and popes producing offspring who purportedly can at least serve as pretenders to their fathers' ecclesiastical seats.
Why coudn't concubinage be represented by a marriage? The only difference is that laws did not apply for succession and things, but bishops are open elective anyway so who cares?
As for popes producsing offsprings who can serve as pretenders to their fathers' ecclesiastical seats, have you never heard of Cesar Borgia? He was a son of the Pope (Alexander II) who was granted substantial estates in Romagna; he conquered many parts of Italy but when the Holy See changed hands, he was branded a rebel by the new pope and arrested.
As for popes producsing offsprings who can serve as pretenders to their fathers' ecclesiastical seats, have you never heard of Cesar Borgia?
He was a son of the Pope (Alexander II) who was granted substantial estates in Romagna; he conquered many parts of Italy but when the Holy See changed hands, he was branded a rebel by the new pope and arrested.
Featauril,
Because concubinage was not understood on the same terms as marriage in this period.
The Council of Nicea had forbidden cohabitation with unrelated women. It wasn't the First Lateran Council, which merely strengthened and reiterated the provisions handed down some eight hundred years earlier. Moreover, all marriages post-dating ordination were null, celibacy was an absolute requirement and by the Middle Ages no married man not a widower could be ordained.
Of course, there is a gulf between law and practice, but not wide enough to permit marriages in CK II. As for thinking of "wives" as "mistresses," why? Mistresses are not part of the game otherwise.
EDIT: Solution is simple. Characters installed in the sees either cannot have wives (whether because they're unmarried or because they're widowed) or are automatically "divorced" by the engine upon taking their holy orders. From then on, the characters (whether by rule in the mechanics or logic in the AI) will not accept marriage proposals.
Because concubinage was not understood on the same terms as marriage in this period.
The Council of Nicea had forbidden cohabitation with unrelated women. It wasn't the First Lateran Council, which merely strengthened and reiterated the provisions handed down some eight hundred years earlier. Moreover, all marriages post-dating ordination were null, celibacy was an absolute requirement and by the Middle Ages no married man not a widower could be ordained.
Of course, there is a gulf between law and practice, but not wide enough to permit marriages in CK II. As for thinking of "wives" as "mistresses," why? Mistresses are not part of the game otherwise.
EDIT: Solution is simple. Characters installed in the sees either cannot have wives (whether because they're unmarried or because they're widowed) or are automatically "divorced" by the engine upon taking their holy orders. From then on, the characters (whether by rule in the mechanics or logic in the AI) will not accept marriage proposals.
And despite all this (eg council of Nicea) there were still plenty of married priests/bishops etc during the 11th and into the 12th Century. It certainly was always the case in the East before the Great Schism and also the West.
To quote form elsewhere:
"Through a series of papal decretals from late fourth- and early fifth-century popes, clerical celibacy was the universal rule by the reign of Pope St. Leo I (440-464). But it was not observed the way it is today. While bishops were not allowed to live with their wives, priests were, so long as they did not have sexual intercourse. Various church laws were enacted to prevent scandal and sin. For example, a priest could not share a room with his spouse, and he was not to sleep in a room alone. By the sixth century, such councils as those of Gerona (517) and Toledo (589) decreed that it was preferable that a cleric in major orders (i.e. priests and or higher up) not live with his spouse. An interesting fact about the wives of those who entered orders: they were recognized by canon law and possessed a special status.They were known as bishopesses, priestesses and deaconnnesses. They received a special blessing upon their husband's ordination, wore a distinctive garb and were not allowed to marry, even after the death of their husbands.
So it was still going on.
After the break up of Charlemagne's empire the situation again became grave with many priests/bishops again marrying and having children quite openly.
To quote form elsewhere:
"Through a series of papal decretals from late fourth- and early fifth-century popes, clerical celibacy was the universal rule by the reign of Pope St. Leo I (440-464). But it was not observed the way it is today. While bishops were not allowed to live with their wives, priests were, so long as they did not have sexual intercourse. Various church laws were enacted to prevent scandal and sin. For example, a priest could not share a room with his spouse, and he was not to sleep in a room alone. By the sixth century, such councils as those of Gerona (517) and Toledo (589) decreed that it was preferable that a cleric in major orders (i.e. priests and or higher up) not live with his spouse. An interesting fact about the wives of those who entered orders: they were recognized by canon law and possessed a special status.They were known as bishopesses, priestesses and deaconnnesses. They received a special blessing upon their husband's ordination, wore a distinctive garb and were not allowed to marry, even after the death of their husbands.
So it was still going on.
After the break up of Charlemagne's empire the situation again became grave with many priests/bishops again marrying and having children quite openly.
Does elsewhere have a name?
I'd like to see this evidence of the normalcy of married bishops. Priests I'm not concerned about.
I'd like to see this evidence of the normalcy of married bishops. Priests I'm not concerned about.
Featuril,
Perhaps you misunderstand. Nobody is suggesting bishops and popes cannot have secular titles to which their relations would obviously have a claim.
What happened in this case is that a Pope's daughters had claims to Rome.
docdeath,
Plenty? Cite some sources.
Name me one sovereign bishop (i.e., the bishops we're talking about at the county-level in CK) who openly married while in his ecclesiastical seat and retained it and we'll talk.
Perhaps you misunderstand. Nobody is suggesting bishops and popes cannot have secular titles to which their relations would obviously have a claim.
What happened in this case is that a Pope's daughters had claims to Rome.
docdeath,
Plenty? Cite some sources.
Name me one sovereign bishop (i.e., the bishops we're talking about at the county-level in CK) who openly married while in his ecclesiastical seat and retained it and we'll talk.
Woops I might have a problem with Sovereign ones. Let me have a look in my books when I get home from work tonight.
It might have happened in some cases, but theres simply no way that what were seeing in the demo is WAD for the clergy. At least, I sure as hell hope it isnt.
Non of the popes were married while being pope.
Now there were some married bishops, but it was the norm for bishops to be celibate, while priests didn't have to be. Pope Gregory VII decision added all priests to this rule.
I don't know where you get that families were broken up and forced into slavery, or that there were woman priests....