Biggest problem of the new education system

[RagingJaws]

It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to jump through hoops to make education even a little interesting. And the AI needs to learn how to use the new system effectively.

What hoops are you jumping through?

AI is never going to be smart enough to impress the player. At most, it'll stumble through blind luck into a routine of picking a few good focuses in a row for each generation. I don't see much problem with that. It wasn't really smart with the previous education system either.

 

[Rationalsanity]

What hoops are you jumping through?

AI is never going to be smart enough to impress the player. At most, it'll stumble through blind luck into a routine of picking a few good focuses in a row for each generation. I don't see much problem with that. It wasn't really smart with the previous education system either.

You need certain traits or stats to get even a few events. The education process is mostly a few clicks and few events.

And at least the AI could get lucky with the old system. Now incompetent characters are the norm.

 

[RagingJaws]

You need certain traits or stats to get even a few events. The education process is mostly a few clicks and few events.

I'll grant you that it's simpler but I don't know what events you would be locked out of, unless you are talking about the generic trait events that get disabled with Conclave. They were interesting, sure, but they didn't feel as immersive and fired randomly. I much prefer having an adult come into his/her own with a few traits and see how they change over the course of 25-50 years. Plus I don't have to agonize over my heir suddenly getting arbitrary, craven, or slothful due to non-conclave education event that fires randomly a month before he matures.

Simpler=sometimes better. Only hoop to jump through is what you make.

 

[Thrake]

I don't think it is unrealistic that someone can be Brave, Shy, Proud, Greedy, Diligent, Ambitious, and Kind at age 16

7 is the max amount of traits you can more or less keep (more than that you'll start loosing some to events).

I find that decision that pops up where you can influence the child to be patient, ambitious etc in return for either a bad trait yourself, rivalry or a timed malus a bit ridiculous. Chances are whatever good trait they get will be lost in short order while you'll die of stress or have to give away demesne maybe for a marginal return.

I certainly find it a good idea to give ambitious or patient to my heir... That's both strong traits that I can benefit for decades when I die. Giving to random people, I usually don't but I sometimes RP and give a bonus to my dynasts. I also quite like the wroth/cruel event, it's bad for diplomacy but awesome for a strong martial character.

I'll grant you that it's simpler but I don't know what events you would be locked out of,

When a child gets an event, the mentor can only interact to pass on a different trait than whatever the child had picked during the event. To get that possibility, you need the right trait for the right event.

 

[RagingJaws]

When a child gets an event, the mentor can only interact to pass on a different trait than whatever the child had picked during the event. To get that possibility, you need the right trait for the right event.

Yeah, the other half of my sentence that you cut out covers the old education events. Rude!

Like my favorite, the torturing baby animals in some wretched peasant stable event for a ward. I can't express my joy in mere words at having that event fire for nearly every child or how immersive it felt for my character to console or partake with their ward in that psychopathic bonding moment. /sarcasm

 

[jere8184]

With the new customisation system they should allow us to choose the education system we want. i think the ck2 devs needed to start paying more attention to the community a poll every week at the start of the game or something because compared to EU4 devs they have been extremely silent on the forums

 

[Thrake]

Yeah, the other half of my sentence that you cut out covers the old education events. Rude!

Like my favorite, the torturing baby animals in some wretched peasant stable event for a ward. I can't express my joy in mere words at having that event fire for nearly every child or how immersive it felt for my character to console or partake with their ward in that psychopathic bonding moment. /sarcasm

A shame you don't like violence on small animals...

I don't know for generic events but that's how it works with conclave system too. I don't like the old system either so you're preaching to the converted

 

[Shebaloso]

Aside from that, the foci are strange in a lot of ways, with your character getting better at something the instant they start down the path of that particular focus. Granted, some of it probably comes down to putting a little more energy into it, but that all city vassals like you more if you decided that you liked business yesterday or that you get more attractive if you start considering seduction is a bit strange (especially as characters that they might not be interested in themselves (due to being the wrong gender for the seducer, being rivals, etc.) start finding them more attractive and that characters that realistically should dislike the notion of seduction (due to being Chaste, Zealous, Celibate, etc.) also start liking them more if they are attracted to the relevant gender). Sure, if you spend a number of years doing focus-related things you probably will become better at it, but it should not happen the instant you press the magic button.

The focuses are mere abstractions for "engaging in related activities". For example, choosing "rulership" means that you started to put an effort into the "ruling" aspect of the game, solving some conflicts between your vassals (various events), managing your finances and realm (higher stewardship etc. Choosing "war" means a constant effort to improve your martial side, be it through reading books on strategy or keeping a good physical condition, and so forth. In your specific examples, focus on "trade" simply means a closer relationship between the burghers and the local lord with the intent of accruing better profits for both parts. The 3 points are merely and indication that you are now devoting time to improve a specific area and are far from being unbalanced given the nature of the game. It's very possible to go 1 year under a focus and not get any of the events tied to it.

I personally think it's a very good aspect of the game. And for those of you who think that the focuses bonuses are too good and lack verosimilitude, let us remember that after the same 5-6 years some of us go from shitty teens to legally able to build houses and bridges or to perform surgery.

 

[Jorlem]

In my honest opinion, the biggest problem with Conclave's new education system is that most children tend to enter adulthood with only 1-3 traits, whereas before they had about 3-7 (purely from my own experience). I find that this is a bit disappointing as it leads to the homogenization of characters in the long run.

I asked about this back in February, and was told that this number of traits is intended:

The kids in my game seem to be lucky if they reach age 16 with three personality traits, though. (Most only have two.) Is that intended?

Yes, the average number of traits a child will get is two. Though, getting three traits is much more common than getting just one, and getting zero is very rare indeed!

 

[Hecaton]

It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to jump through hoops to make education even a little interesting. And the AI needs to learn how to use the new system effectively.

Seriously. This current team on CK *always* sacrifices fun for nebulous supposed gameplay benefits. Part of why if I play the game these days I play it on a rolled-back patch.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

Pros of old system: had the ability to create diverse characters, could control the direction of your groom very well
cons of the old system: The rewards and reward system were flawed/done very poorly (no real incentive to pick many of the options, Ai was very poor at using system

pros of new system: player is rewarded better for their choices, ai much less unreliable with system
cons of new system: bland, educators have much less influence on wards now

What I've done personally about all this is done some modding. I reactivated the events of the old system, did a little numbers editing so as to create a better reward system for the player and a more competent ai usage, and I put in some new restrictions to these events based on preexisting childhood traits and vise versa (childhood trait restrictions based on preexisting personality traits)

Overall Effect: the number of total traits I get from an educator with a good amount of traits himself is around 5-7. I like this first of all because it helps encapsulate the idea of unpredictable teens and how we can change a lot from 16 and in potentially many directions as well. Investing in foreign rulers who are young becomes a lot more of a reward/risk as well because of this. Second, it gives the player a sense of control over their wards while also giving incentives that sometimes entice a player to sometimes not always do what's best for the child. At the same time with educator traits having a greater effect on upbringing and more competent AI decision making, it is not uncommon to prefer an AI educator who could do better for your heir rather than yourself as the AI can be much more trusted on these issues now. All in all I feel that child education in my game is sitting in a place that is very satisfying and produces much more believable and realistic results from both AI and player educators. --There's also a mod out there right now that tries to achieve much the same thing that I've tried to in my game.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Pros of old system: had the ability to create diverse characters, could control the direction of your groom very well
cons of the old system: The rewards and reward system were flawed/done very poorly (no real incentive to pick many of the options, Ai was very poor at using system

pros of new system: player is rewarded better for their choices, ai much less unreliable with system
cons of new system: bland, educators have much less influence on wards now

What I've done personally about all this is done some modding. I reactivated the events of the old system, did a little numbers editing so as to create a better reward system for the player and a more competent ai usage, and I put in some new restrictions to these events based on preexisting childhood traits and vise versa (childhood trait restrictions based on preexisting personality traits)

Overall Effect: the number of total traits I get from an educator with a good amount of traits himself is around 5-7. I like this first of all because it helps encapsulate the idea of unpredictable teens and how we can change a lot from 16 and in potentially many directions as well. Investing in foreign rulers who are young becomes a lot more of a reward/risk as well because of this. Second, it gives the player a sense of control over their wards while also giving incentives that sometimes entice a player to sometimes not always do what's best for the child. At the same time with educator traits having a greater effect on upbringing and more competent AI decision making, it is not uncommon to prefer an AI educator who could do better for your heir rather than yourself as the AI can be much more trusted on these issues now. All in all I feel that child education in my game is sitting in a place that is very satisfying and produces much more believable and realistic results from both AI and player educators. --There's also a mod out there right now that tries to achieve much the same thing that I've tried to in my game.

What? How is the AI better at using the new system?

 

[AnimeAtheist]

What? How is the AI better at using the new system?

It's pretty simple actually. I'm still working on the intricate subtle nuances still, but the big picture is in place. See, the AI decision making isn't hard coded here, its soft codded. All decisions are based on factors, weights, and modifiers. So the right base factors with the right traits giving the right weight modifiers in the right circumstances, you can pretty easily get the AI to pick certain choices almost everytime. If you want to look for yourself the file is: guardian_events.txt, which is located in, of course, your events folder, which is in your CK2 folder from the steam folder.

 

[Silversweeeper]

The focuses are mere abstractions for "engaging in related activities". For example, choosing "rulership" means that you started to put an effort into the "ruling" aspect of the game, solving some conflicts between your vassals (various events), managing your finances and realm (higher stewardship etc. Choosing "war" means a constant effort to improve your martial side, be it through reading books on strategy or keeping a good physical condition, and so forth. In your specific examples, focus on "trade" simply means a closer relationship between the burghers and the local lord with the intent of accruing better profits for both parts. The 3 points are merely and indication that you are now devoting time to improve a specific area and are far from being unbalanced given the nature of the game. It's very possible to go 1 year under a focus and not get any of the events tied to it.

I personally think it's a very good aspect of the game. And for those of you who think that the focuses bonuses are too good and lack verosimilitude, let us remember that after the same 5-6 years some of us go from shitty teens to legally able to build houses and bridges or to perform surgery.

Getting 3 points (or 2 points and an additional advantage or two) with no drawbacks (except for losing the old focus' bonus) as soon as you start using the focus is quite powerful. Sure, you can't unmake that decision for five years, but the events where you get a stat boost/education upgrade/lifestyle later on during the focus years make a lot more sense than getting noticeably better the instant you press the button. If you temporarily lost points in other areas due to overfocusing on your chosen area or the boost was much lower (+1 for the +3 foci, a smaller opinion/health/etc. boost for the others) it would make more sense.

It's pretty simple actually. I'm still working on the intricate subtle nuances still, but the big picture is in place. See, the AI decision making isn't hard coded here, its soft codded. All decisions are based on factors, weights, and modifiers. So the right base factors with the right traits giving the right weight modifiers in the right circumstances, you can pretty easily get the AI to pick certain choices almost everytime. If you want to look for yourself the file is: guardian_events.txt, which is located in, of course, your events folder, which is in your CK2 folder from the steam folder.

Those particular events existed before Conclave and have not been heavily modified along with Conclave/2.5.X, so they are not an example of the new system in action. Of course, a lot of the old events lacked weights entirely, but the new events don't have a lot of weights either. The adolescence events only have weights on the potential homosexuality chain (with nothing depending on traits, I should add), and the vast majority of the weights for the childhood events are either 100/0 (child chooses whether to do one thing or another, always leads to the child picking the event that gives more events) or just a slight weight (e.g. a 60/40 chance to pay for a new toy vs. going through the garbage yourself), with no traits being involved in the AI decision making process.

You can definitely rewrite it to be more logical, but then we are talking a modded version of Conclave vs. the unmodded version without Conclave, where the only direct advantages for Conclave is that you can modify the foci pick chance and modify the final outcome (the first of which was irrelevant before and the second of which you technically could have done before by firing an event on adulthood to overwrite the initial education trait based on different parameters), not unmodded Conclave vs. unmodded pre-Conclave.

 

[AnimeAtheist]

so they are not an example of the new system in action

I think you misread somewhere. The "new system" in question is my system. The one that brings back the old childhood events and works them in conjunction with the new conclave ones.

 

[Silversweeeper]

I think you misread somewhere. The "new system" in question is my system. The one that brings back the old childhood events and works them in conjunction with the new conclave ones.

I read it as your pro/con list referring to Conclave/non-Conclave due to the thread being about that, with the modding part of that post being unrelated to your position about the AI making the right decisions. Modding definitely can improve both systems, and something that has been modded to your liking obviously will be better for you (and possibly some other people with similar tastes) than the unmodded version, but a hybrid system or a modded version of either system being better than the unmodded version(s) is different from either of the unmodded versions being better than the other.

 

[Rationalsanity]

I think you misread somewhere. The "new system" in question is my system. The one that brings back the old childhood events and works them in conjunction with the new conclave ones.

At, that was my mistake as well.