Biggest problem of the new education system

[Lord_P]

In my honest opinion, the biggest problem with Conclave's new education system is that most children tend to enter adulthood with only 1-3 traits, whereas before they had about 3-7 (purely from my own experience). I find that this is a bit disappointing as it leads to the homogenization of characters in the long run.

 

[Rationalsanity]

I second this. I can tolerate characters around the world being less capable. But blandness is just awful.

 

[Rascar Capac]

I have no problem with lack of traits. But I do have problem how AI picks education foci. Unless I'm seriously mistaken (and I'd be happy to be corrected), it does not care of base stats of the child or childhood foci, but it's own and guardians behavior. And player has no way to intercept. In previous system, we could offer better suited guardian and hope, but now outcome is locked.

Such a waste of talents and genetics. .

 

[Arkabeth]

I have no problem with lack of traits. But I do have problem how AI picks education foci. Unless I'm seriously mistaken (and I'd be happy to be corrected), it does not care of base stats of the child or childhood foci, but it's own and guardians behavior. And player has no way to intercept. In previous system, we could offer better suited guardian and hope, but now outcome is locked.

Such a waste of talents and genetics. .

There's a lot which can be done to increase the likelihood of children gaining positive traits, though it's still quite random.

You can request others with fitting traits to take over as their guardians (though it's kinda a hassle to match all kinds of traits especially when its random if the AI choose to intervene and then it's random if the intervening even succeds), in addition to trying to remember which childhood traits children had to know which kind of education they're most suited to. At least the sparseness of traits makes it easier to pin down their childhood traits.

If the guardian has 12 or higher in stats (even more likely with multiple stats) there are events which can trigger with a chance giving children mostly positive traits at a "price" for the guardian (AI choice is random in this matter).

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Education_(Conclave)

 

[Rationalsanity]

There's a lot which can be done to increase the likelihood of children gaining positive traits, though it's still quite random.

You can request others with fitting traits to take over as their guardians (though it's kinda a hassle to match all kinds of traits especially when its random if the AI choose to intervene and then it's random if the intervening even succeds), in addition to trying to remember which childhood traits children had to know which kind of education they're most suited to. At least the sparseness of traits makes it easier to pin down their childhood traits.

If the guardian has 12 or higher in stats (even more likely with multiple stats) there are events which can trigger with a chance giving children mostly positive traits at a "price" for the guardian (AI choice is random in this matter).

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Education_(Conclave)

That doesn't help foreign characters.

 

[Rascar Capac]

There's a lot which can be done to increase the likelihood of children gaining positive traits, though it's still quite random.

You can request others with fitting traits to take over as their guardians (though it's kinda a hassle to match all kinds of traits especially when its random if the AI choose to intervene and then it's random if the intervening even succeds), in addition to trying to remember which childhood traits children had to know which kind of education they're most suited to. At least the sparseness of traits makes it easier to pin down their childhood traits.

If the guardian has 12 or higher in stats (even more likely with multiple stats) there are events which can trigger with a chance giving children mostly positive traits at a "price" for the guardian (AI choice is random in this matter).

http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Education_(Conclave)

But I'm not talking about traits, I'm talking about foci. That's what I see as problem. Traits can evolve, be lost and gained, but education stucks for life. And education focus locks child for that particular field, no matter how (ill)suited they are. This leads, for example, to dutiful clerics with base 10 martial and traits better suited for spymaster. And, as I said, we cannot intervene in this matter.

Despite the fact that often those badly educated vassals then expect us to hand them jobs.

 

[Shebaloso]

In my honest opinion, the biggest problem with Conclave's new education system is that most children tend to enter adulthood with only 1-3 traits, whereas before they had about 3-7 (purely from my own experience). I find that this is a bit disappointing as it leads to the homogenization of characters in the long run.

yeah, because it was very reasonable that a child be a mega master blaster sage with the 7 virtues, just, gregarious and brave by the age of 16...

If anything, the current system adds a significant degree of verosimiltude to the game. I think this "bland" character thing is SO MUCH better than the old system. Before, we would always have a teenager demi god by the time he turned 16. Now it makes much more sense. What does a 16 year old person know about life? It's only fair that they develop/show only a few traits during childhood and then develop their character as they live. And there is also a more challenging succession, as the lack of traits and probable lack of demi god status would make choosing the right focus and managing vassals much more important.

And what is this homogeneization you are talking about? You mean people with the same traits? If so, i guess we might be playing different games...

 

[tywinzo]

This was the best education system:

Dislike the ability to cherry-pick your exact traits and education types, etc, etc..

 

[Silversweeeper]

I personally find the loss of the old flavour events to be annoying in itself. Sure, I have had a fairly large number of girls wanting to practice swordfighting, children finding knives in the dungeon, and so on, but it was still fun to get these events. The relative blandness of the outcome is also bad, but I dislike that Conclave disabled all the old events a lot as I don't feel that getting new events should remove old events.

As for whether the old system led to overpowered characters or not, that really came down to how you used it. If you always educated your heir yourself and always picked the best traits, you generally ended up with a fairly good character, but if you either let the AI handle the education or roleplayed the education you generally got a mix of good and bad that changed from one generation to the next (my Kind, Shy, Cynical, and Greedy king isn't going to beat Slothful, Arbitrary, or Craven out of a child, and my Envious, Cruel, and Lustful emperor is likely to take steps to remove traits like Chaste, Charitable, and Content).

 

[Thrake]

I personally find the loss of the old flavour events to be annoying in itself. Sure, I have had a fairly large number of girls wanting to practice swordfighting, children finding knives in the dungeon, and so on, but it was still fun to get these events. The relative blandness of the outcome is also bad, but I dislike that Conclave disabled all the old events a lot as I don't feel that getting new events should remove old events.

Should my tutee be glutonous or gregarious events you mean? What kind of choice where that?

I personnaly quite like starting with few traits; it's more realistic and anyway there are events that add extra traits for every character with few traits; that and traits from focus so overall in a matter of years you will get a more defined personality. As life goes on, people's character change... We're not set in stone from birth (or 16 for that matter).

 

[Rationalsanity]

There's also the fact that the foci are unbalanced as hell. Some are flatout better than outs.

 

[Silversweeeper]

Should my tutee by glutonous or gregarious events you mean? What kind of choice where that?

I personnaly quite like starting with few traits; it's more realistic and anyway there are events that add extra traits for every character with few traits; that and traits from focus so overall in a matter of years you will get a more defined personality. As life goes on, people's character change... We're not set in stone from birth (or 16 for that matter).

The choice between encouraging and discouraging a child from getting a certain trait. Granted, a lot of the events were guaranteed to give/remove a specific trait, which was worse than those where it was a random chance, but unless you ignored the traits of your current character it didn't guarantee that your ward would be a great character in all respects. Similar in some ways, sure, but I don't think I ever ended up with a ward with the exact same traits as my character when I roleplayed my character, particularly not as it was quite possible to change your traits during the years you were educating someone and that you thus could find that you were Zealous a few months after telling your ward that they should be more cynical. I'll grant that someone who didn't roleplay could go for better traits, but such a player will always have an advantage over someone who tries to play in accordance with what their character would do.

I don't disagree with people changing over time, but I also don't think it is unrealistic that someone has a fairly clear personality developed at 16. It certainly does not have to be the final personality, not does it have to be set to one extreme or another on all possible trinary trait scales, but I don't think it is unrealistic that someone can be Brave, Shy, Proud, Greedy, Diligent, Ambitious, and Kind at age 16 when there are so few positions on the various scales unless all traits are supposed to be extreme to such an extent that it is hard to believe that someone acts like that (e.g. all Brave characters would willingly charge a thousand men on their own instead of waiting for their backup, all Greedy characters would steal from their best friend if given the opportunity, and all Trusting characters would let strange hooded men with swords inside their bedroom even when rumour has it that their rival has been contacting various assassins) instead of the character just being enough Brave/Greedy/Trusting/etc. that it is a noticeable deviation from the average.

Aside from that, the foci are strange in a lot of ways, with your character getting better at something the instant they start down the path of that particular focus. Granted, some of it probably comes down to putting a little more energy into it, but that all city vassals like you more if you decided that you liked business yesterday or that you get more attractive if you start considering seduction is a bit strange (especially as characters that they might not be interested in themselves (due to being the wrong gender for the seducer, being rivals, etc.) start finding them more attractive and that characters that realistically should dislike the notion of seduction (due to being Chaste, Zealous, Celibate, etc.) also start liking them more if they are attracted to the relevant gender). Sure, if you spend a number of years doing focus-related things you probably will become better at it, but it should not happen the instant you press the magic button.

 

[FifthMonarchy]

I find that decision that pops up where you can influence the child to be patient, ambitious etc in return for either a bad trait yourself, rivalry or a timed malus a bit ridiculous. Chances are whatever good trait they get will be lost in short order while you'll die of stress or have to give away demesne maybe for a marginal return. You can elect to leave them to their own devices but that makes the vent a bit of a waste of time IMO.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Isn't it a far greater issue that an individual in CK is basically four numbers, which are accessible to the player at all times?

Individual traits may be unbalanced and the education system is certainly flawed, but the fact you have full knowledge of the character and potential of every single person in the CK universe - instantly updated - is by far the greatest blow to immersion.

 

[Rationalsanity]

Isn't it a far greater issue that an individual in CK is basically four numbers, which are accessible to the player at all times?

Individual traits may be unbalanced and the education system is certainly flawed, but the fact you have full knowledge of the character and potential of every single person in the CK universe - instantly updated - is by far the greatest blow to immersion.

The game would unplayable otherwise.

 

[RagingJaws]

Sample stretch of my "homogenized" siblings. I picked the exact same upbringing+focus.

Oldest sister: Naive Appeaser. Slothful/Just/Gregarious/Cruel/Content
Next Sister: Naive Appeaser. Patient/Shy/Slothful/Kind/Cynical
Next Sister: Naive Appeaser. Wroth/Ambitious/Shy/Craven/Trusting
Next Sister: Charismatic Negotiator. Twin/Ambitious/Kind/Just/Greedy/Proud
Next Sister: Charismatic Negotiator. Attractive/Twin/Temperate/Gregarious/Charitable/Cruel/Zealous/Depressed
Next Sister: Charismatic Negotiator. Legitimized Bastard/Charitable/Just/Erudite/Cruel
Youngest Sister: Underhanded Rogue. Legitimized Bastard/Trusting/Gregarious/Chaste/Brave/Proud

Looks like any other non-conclave education, after fifty years of AI decision and events. Sure, characters that die young have less traits overall but why is that a problem? All my long lived characters generally have anywhere between 4-7, which was the norm.

 

[killerbee256]

I like it in so far as it is much easier to change culture now, where as in the past it was a shot in the dark if the child would take on the culture of their guardian.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

I sense that the idea behind the new system is good, but it needs a lot more balancing. I want it to be less random, a more an outcome of the randomness, mother and father's traits and stats, guardian and educator's traits and stats and focus...

 

[Conan Troutman]

I like the new system, it's more realistic and diverse. Before Conclave, you could pretty much bake your heir. Now, kids have something resembling a personality and you have to select their education accordingly. Even if you set the childhood focus the same, there still are different outcomes making them better suited to different fields than intended (and some kids turn out rather useless, just like in real life). No endless stream of just, gregarious, temperate etc. grey eminences. There's still room for some fine tuning and more events, but it's a step in the right direction.
As others have already pointed out, fewer traits at 16 in general is also more realistic.

 

[Rationalsanity]

It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to jump through hoops to make education even a little interesting. And the AI needs to learn how to use the new system effectively.