Biffa: "I have some things I need to say about Cities Skylines 2"

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For me personally, The wonderful game that is Cities Skylines made me believe that colossal order was one of the last safe bets to pre order Cities Skylines 2 from. But sadly I was let down in a major way, and now going forward, there is zero chance of me ever pre ordering a game again. Thats just the sorry state of the video game industry. Put out a majorly deceptive marketing campaign and happily scoop up the money and never apologize. The foresight by these high ups is just baffling.
Never say never :D But joking aside, I feel like you do - if I'm going to preorder a game pretty much sight unseen, basing that decision solely on marketing and YouTubers (something I NEVER EVER do), then surely Colossal Order would be the team to do it from - right? Right? RIGHT???
 
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What makes you think people won't be willing return to CS2 by the time the second expansion releases? Say, in 6-12 months from now?
I really hope that some indie developers are secretly busy making some amazing new city builder do disrupt the market. Like Skylines 1 picked up the pieces form SimCity 2013. It would be good for the genre to have some great competition.

Also a lot of people don't seem to feel these days that all the gameplay issues (or lack thereof) that they are looking for are going to be adressed. CO doesn't has really have a very good track record the past months and they already said serveral times that 'we reached all goals for the gameplay'.

So time will tell. But I don't think some small DLC with beach assets will improve the gameplay drastically. In the past CS-expansions always had to be this stand alone mechanic mini-games that you could 'complete' in 2 hours.
 
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So just TwoDollarsTwenty to go and we'll have the full set? Hilarious. CO and by extension PDX are going to have to display nerves of steel if they're set on adopting the strategy I outlined above.
He already announced it 2 days ago on YT Community

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Even the very small channels like JoyBuildsCities and most others went back to CS1.

Even the official livestream had like 59 live viewers this week and is losing like 3000 views every week.

It seems most people have about the same amount of 'patience reservoir'.
 
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He already announced it 2 days ago on YT Community

View attachment 1081813

Even the very small channels like JoyBuildsCities and most others went back to CS1.

Even the official livestream had like 59 live viewers this week and is losing like 3000 views every week.

It seems most people have about the same amount of 'patience reservoir'.
Off topic but two dollars twenty city looks amazing. The level of creativity and passion from these content creators never ceases to amaze me.

As well as how great CS1 looks. Man it’s raw seeing it :(
 
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Plenty of the issues people complain about most frequently should be fixable within that timeframe.
I hope so too that they can resolve all these issues within a year. There is a mountain of things I think they need to resolve as laid out: simulation (lack of information, getting to what was advertised), bugs, assets, modding.

The problem I’m worried about is that do they have enough people to do so, given that they are insisting on DLCs and console releases for this year? And how are they going to achieve it? The frequency of the patches as of writing has been slowed down immeasurably to DLC releases only.

I really want CS2 as they advertised, I truly do, it was the game for me. I really fear that CO will never be able to achieve it to the extent of what their marketing suggested. They will simply call the simulation “done” and move on, even though the simulation, Traffic AI is simply not working after a certain point. :(
 
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So just TwoDollarsTwenty to go and we'll have the full set? Hilarious. CO and by extension PDX are going to have to display nerves of steel if they're set on adopting the strategy I outlined above.
I haven't seen all of the videos, but my impression from the first ones is that the content creators still wants CS2 to end up doing well, and Biffa at least said he would keep doing CS2 content, but less of it. As long as they keep doing CS1 and CS2 content, there is no reason for CO to worry much about the viability of such a plan.

So time will tell. But I don't think some small DLC with beach assets will improve the gameplay drastically. In the past CS-expansions always had to be this stand alone mechanic mini-games that you could 'complete' in 2 hours.
The developers seems to be distinguishing between expansions and smaller asset packs, such as the beach assets. The first expansion, which is also included in the ultimate edition, is the bridges and ports which are planned for Q2. It is not unreasonable to expect the first expansion which people haven't already paid for in late Q3 or in Q4. That leaves another 6+ months before they have planned for another big cash injection. A lot can be done in that time. Whether or not CO will do enough in that time remains to be seen.

Anyone who bought the ultimate edition basically encouraged CO to spend another 6 months or so to solve issues post release. For now CO have plenty of time.
 
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Plenty of the issues people complain about most frequently should be fixable within that timeframe.
Are you a game developer to have such insight into CS II's code? I'm not so all I can guess is this:

* Plenty of issues should have been fixed before the release. They weren't.
* These same issues should have been fixed in the first quarter after the release. They weren't either.
* These same issues should be worked on and a roadmap should be made public. They're not.

3,5 months since the release, the performance is still abysmal, both for the GPu and the CPU, thousands of bugs still haven't been fixed or even processed, some of them game-breaking (and worse: some introduced in the patches) , the mods support is still missing and the asset editor is so broken nobody at CO has any idea how to fix it. Add to this the simulation fail-safes which are a feature, not a bug, and are infuriating most everybody.

Meanwhile, we learned last week there won't be standalone patches anymore, only when CO will add new content like the map editor or the DLCs. Mariina admitted it herself: they did the easy fixes. 100 days to do a handful of easy fixes. And you think they'll do the hard work in 6-12 months? I'd love to be as optimistic as you because I used to love CO's work but I'm not.
 
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The first expansion, which is also included in the ultimate edition, is the bridges and ports which are planned for Q2. It is not unreasonable to expect the first expansion which people haven't already paid for in late Q3 or in Q4.
Yes, it's totally unreasonable to release 2 expansions in the same semester, espacially as they still have to fix the base game. They never did that. You seem to think everybody paid the 1rst expansion. Do you have official data on base game and ultimate edition sales? I was planning to buy the bridges and ports DLC but haven't bought the ultimate edition because I don't care about the radios and most of the assets packs. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this case. Anyway, I now know I won't even buy Bridges & ports because the game will still be badly broken.

Anyone who bought the ultimate edition basically encouraged CO to spend another 6 months or so to solve issues post release. For now CO have plenty of time.
Don't blame the producer and the faulty product, blame the customer. What a terrible mentality. People who bought the ultimate edition did it for the discount, for supporting a game we all loved, expecting the roadmap as advertised on the Steam page. Everything was delayed, even the roadmap, which I guess is actionable as it was part of the contract.
 
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What I feel CO needs to do is let the Stellaris dev team teach them about how to communicate and how to structure releasing fixes and features to the players. Right now Stellaris is a great example of doing that right:
* They have a dev diary every week without fail, save for the times when the team is on holiday. If they can't for some reason, they let us know.
* They respond to player comments in the dev diary thread. While CO does this somewhat, it doesn't happen very often.
* They provide open beta test branches to give players a preview of fixes and new features so we can give feedback on them.
* They have a separate team (the Custodians) whose sole purpose is to fix bugs.
* And now just recently, they actually approached modders who provided fixes and incorporated some of them into the next release. They didn't have to "swallow their pride" because that's not the attitude they have towards the community. They see the players are partners rather than merely customers.
 
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It's turning into a master class on how not to handle a botched launch, really. Both in terms of CO's and PDX' response. As a matter of fact, we don't know how much PDX directed CO in terms of how to talk to the community, so I guess I can give them some benefit of the doubt there.

I find myself not really playing CS2 anymore, either. Laying out the initial grid of the city is fun and the game is beautiful, but once you're done expanding, there's just nothing to do. The deep simulation that was supposed to be the meat and potatoes of the game (and which would actually challenge you, unlike CS1 where you mostly just had to fix traffic as your population grew) just isn't there.


Funny, I have the same experience with "virtue signalling". It's like a guarantee the person using it is not arguing in good faith.

Heh. I feel the same way about the term "good faith".
 
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Are you a game developer to have such insight into CS II's code? I'm not so all I can guess is this:

* Plenty of issues should have been fixed before the release. They weren't.
* These same issues should have been fixed in the first quarter after the release. They weren't either.
* These same issues should be worked on and a roadmap should be made public. They're not.

3,5 months since the release, the performance is still abysmal, both for the GPu and the CPU, thousands of bugs still haven't been fixed or even processed, some of them game-breaking (and worse: some introduced in the patches) , the mods support is still missing and the asset editor is so broken nobody at CO has any idea how to fix it. Add to this the simulation fail-safes which are a feature, not a bug, and are infuriating most everybody.

Meanwhile, we learned last week there won't be standalone patches anymore, only when CO will add new content like the map editor or the DLCs. Mariina admitted it herself: they did the easy fixes. 100 days to do a handful of easy fixes. And you think they'll do the hard work in 6-12 months? I'd love to be as optimistic as you because I used to love CO's work but I'm not.
You're right not to be optimistic, because your analysis is correct. Goes to show just how broken CS2 really was (and is). We're not even talking about weird design choices and unfinished features (like terrain conformity, water physics, farms etc.) but simply bugs.
How could CS2 ever recover from this kind of release? It's not gonna be a second No Mans Sky. It's PD so it's a fairly safe bet they're gonna prioritize selling DLC over fixing the game.
 
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this game collapsed and many people will find many games to play planet zoo on consoles jwe2 with more dlcs coming maybe really soon fallout london and f4 next gen upgrade along with tv show all within march to april
 
What I feel CO needs to do is let the Stellaris dev team teach them about how to communicate and how to structure releasing fixes and features to the players. Right now Stellaris is a great example of doing that right:
* They have a dev diary every week without fail, save for the times when the team is on holiday. If they can't for some reason, they let us know.
* They respond to player comments in the dev diary thread. While CO does this somewhat, it doesn't happen very often.
* They provide open beta test branches to give players a preview of fixes and new features so we can give feedback on them.
* They have a separate team (the Custodians) whose sole purpose is to fix bugs.
* And now just recently, they actually approached modders who provided fixes and incorporated some of them into the next release. They didn't have to "swallow their pride" because that's not the attitude they have towards the community. They see the players are partners rather than merely customers.
While I agree with all that, Stellaris also suffered mightily from Paradox's policy around DLCs. So much of the DLC content is tacked on and poorly implemented, integrated, and often very buggy in it's own right. While the dev communication is much better than it used to be a few years ago, it doesn't make up for the way the DLC content keeps breaking the game. I ended up stopping playing because the new content just kept making the game worse.
 
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It's going to be years before cs2 gets to the level of cs1. I remember it being said that cs2 is not going to replace cs1 for a long time and with the amount of mods and assets created for cs1 I can imagine why. (I don't follow hype so all this they promised this or that I have no knowledge or interest in, so maybe I missed something here)

As I think biffa it was said, all cities look the samish, well yeah, there isn't the assets yet, this is why cs1 is still going to be going for some years to come

city planner I felt made some good points in game breaking bugs to do with the actual model and I want these to be fixed, and I want performance issues fixed,.. then can come the mods and assets and then maybe cs2 can be in a position to take over from cs1, but not yet.

I got the game when it came out, I do not regret getting the game and after a short stop of a few months (baldurs gate 3) I'm back creating a new city. Personally, I have not loaded cs1 again since cs2 came out, but then I am not a content creater needing thousands of assets
 
I'll be honest, we do need the regional assets ASAP and mod support. These two are the most important thing right now. The modders can fix most issues as they have done before in the past. The assets will give new life to content creators so we can create a more diverse city for the audience instead of clones of everyone elses city. We are in short supply of variety of assets.

I think it is time to release the packs. It makes sense at this time. The mod and editor can come later but get the packs out now so there's more variety of buildings for the content creators to enjoy. TY CO.

That simulation effort worked a bit. Much appreciation. Hope its even better in the future.
 
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Biffa and rest YouTubers have a lot to shut up.
Before the start of CS2 they talk wonders, then for 3 months they have made wonderful videos again, not to mention anything.

And now, that the game goes back with several patches behind the back, with the important errors fixed and optimized performance, do the errors say?
Of course, what they care about is that visits to their YouTube have plummeted.
Credibility = 0
 
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Before the start of CS2 they talk wonders, then for 3 months they have made wonderful videos again, not to mention anything.
You don't bite the hand that feeds you.

It's pretty obvious that Skylines 2 is a dead game on youtube. As an example from the OP, Biffa's most popular CS2 video only has 770k views and that was during the hype era for the game. That's a woeful figure compared to his regular 1mil+ view videos for CS1. ConflictNerd has videos as high as 4 million from CS1, but he hasn't even reached 500k on a CS2 video.

Now that CS2 has failed, and they've milked all they can out of the game when people actually cared, they're shifting to the pro-consumer meta. People aren't watching CS2 build videos, but you can get a big video where you finally join the side of the people who have been ripped off by a company who released a game in a broken state that even the CEO admitted wasn't up to the standards they set with their marketing hype.

Skylines focused Youtubers now have cover now to attack PDX & CO because nothing PDX & CO can do to them now is worse than the way this busted launch has ruined a decade of CS2 video income for them.

On another point, people are bringing up a "console release". Does this game perform well enough to pass console validation?
 
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I think this may be CO's strategy - bank the pre-order and day one sales money, tough it out, wait for the nerd rage to die down and then bounce back with a flourish.

There are a couple of drawbacks (being generous) to this approach though, and it's highly doubtful people will look on CO with much favour in the future... but if CS2 is the only modern-era city builder out there that plays in this vein (W&R:SR is a whole other thing), then they might think it's worth the risk.

Of course, the good people at EA might have thought similar when they released SimCity, only to be blindsided by CO and CS1 - but that's probably where that particular analogy ends since not even SimCity was this broken and barebones on launch :D
It's incredible to think about that CS originally captured the market from EA because the latter had grown too greedy and lazy to make a proper city builder. I remember the initial coverage for Cities Skylines and how it was described as so much better than SC.
 
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It's incredible to think about that CS originally captured the market from EA because the latter had grown too greedy and lazy to make a proper city builder. I remember the initial coverage for Cities Skylines and how it was described as so much better than SC.
I remember seeing the release stream and seeing only one tile at first and thought “oh god they have done it again, why there is so much unused space trapped to 1 highway connection?!”

Then they finally trolled us and revealed u could get 9 square tiles worth and I was blown away lmao.
 
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They never did that. You seem to think everybody paid the 1rst expansion. Do you have official data on base game and ultimate edition sales?

If you read my posts you would see that I said that the first expansion is not as dependant on the general game quality as expansions later on. You don't need to know the ultimate edition sales numbers to come to that conclusion. Would it be better for future sales if the game was perfect at release, while having put in the same resources? Of course, but my point is that as long as people who bought CS2 doesn't suddenly lose their interest in city builders, the financial loss of taking their time to get things right is very limited. Content creators reducing the amount of CS2 content they are making therefore likely have little influence over the plans CO presumably have for improving the game. Due to the nature of the situation it simply doesn't affect CO as much as some people in this thread seems to think it will at this point in time. If they completely abandoned the CS franchise it would be a very different story.

Don't blame the producer and the faulty product, blame the customer. What a terrible mentality. People who bought the ultimate edition did it for the discount, for supporting a game we all loved, expecting the roadmap as advertised on the Steam page. Everything was delayed, even the roadmap, which I guess is actionable as it was part of the contract.
Someone being complicit does not absolve everyone else of fault. If noone preordered any products, the game would very likely have been in a much better state at release since the risk of a bad release would be much higher. Games developers doesn't offer "discounted" ultimate editions out of the kindness of their hearts. They do it because it is profitable. There are always people who are disappointed in games who wouldn't have bought full price expansions. The whole point of ultimate editions is to let people spend money they otherwise would not spend. If you want games to be good you should not buy games to support developers. You should support good games, i.e. games which have already been released.

People can be closed minded all they want about youtubers, but in the end it effects them whether they realize it or not, if all these youtubers are running out of patience for colossal order and paradox to get their head out of the sand. a not insignificant amount of peoples opinion will be influenced. Throwing more goodwill that colossal order accumulated with cities skylines 1, down the toilet.
For the time being that is still a big "if". Going back to CS1 or just making less CS2 content is not losing patience. It is patiently waiting for the game to be fixed, while still keeping their audience interested in their content. As long as theur audience is there for city building content, and the conent creators are interested in the CS franchie, nothing really changes. They will still be a very useful tool to advertise any fixes for CS2. By the looks of it, their jobs (channels) relies on it.


As I think biffa it was said, all cities look the samish, well yeah, there isn't the assets yet, this is why cs1 is still going to be going for some years to come
I found parts of Biffa's video kind of funny. At least two of the complaints about CS2 is pretty much identical to two of my main three complaints about CS1, and I would expect many people to have abandoned CS1 for the same reasons over the years. One of them being that every city looks the same. The other being the feeling that nothing you do really matters. It is simply too easy to make heaps of money. The latter issue would worry me far more than pretty much anything else, with the possible exception of performance. If people who loved CS1 finds the balance to be comoletely out of whack, that likely needs to be adressed. Balancing the economy with all the fail safes will likely take a lot of time.
 
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