And she returns with her usual style and grace
I suppose we should be thankful she didn't land the dropship on us.
Bickering thread
- Thread starter CmdrDunsail
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I suppose we should be thankful she didn't land the dropship on us.
Unfortunately the TT game license holders are trying to jam in some mechanics from video games because so many people have played MWO and thought that's where it all started.
Case in point... Hardpoints.
Let's use a real world analogy here on the three basic levels of mech customization.
You have a computer that's a couple of years old, and want to install a new hard drive, but your power supply only has one remaining 4 pin power cord left, and the new HDD is sata power only.
A reasonable tech could take that 4 pin connector, and cut the end off, strip a bit of insulation, and solder the +5,-5,+12,-12 lines directly onto the sata port if the drive and make it work. ( This would be the average tech with a decent mech bay doing a complete weapon change, ballistic to energy say).
A refit kit would be a 4 pin to sata adapter cable. Works identically, just that all the wiring is pre soldered for you. You still need to plug one end into the connector, and one end to the drive. It just greatly simplified the procedure.
Omnitech takes the whole thing and turns it on its ear, removes both types of connectors, and standardizes the connection with the equivalent of a headphone plug and Jack. Plug goes in the hole. Simple, quick, and can't generally be screwed up.
All of these things do the exact same thing whether you were to install a new HDD, an optical drive, or a fancy sound card expansion port that uses a sata connector. ( Meaning hardpoints are not a factor)
Do you get it?
The TT rules have gone through some updates over the years, but still the TT doesn't use hardpoints. Only TWO video games ( this one will make three) have used hardpoints. That I know of anyways...never played any if the console games like Mech Assault.
Case in point... Hardpoints.
Let's use a real world analogy here on the three basic levels of mech customization.
You have a computer that's a couple of years old, and want to install a new hard drive, but your power supply only has one remaining 4 pin power cord left, and the new HDD is sata power only.
A reasonable tech could take that 4 pin connector, and cut the end off, strip a bit of insulation, and solder the +5,-5,+12,-12 lines directly onto the sata port if the drive and make it work. ( This would be the average tech with a decent mech bay doing a complete weapon change, ballistic to energy say).
A refit kit would be a 4 pin to sata adapter cable. Works identically, just that all the wiring is pre soldered for you. You still need to plug one end into the connector, and one end to the drive. It just greatly simplified the procedure.
Omnitech takes the whole thing and turns it on its ear, removes both types of connectors, and standardizes the connection with the equivalent of a headphone plug and Jack. Plug goes in the hole. Simple, quick, and can't generally be screwed up.
All of these things do the exact same thing whether you were to install a new HDD, an optical drive, or a fancy sound card expansion port that uses a sata connector. ( Meaning hardpoints are not a factor)
Do you get it?
The TT rules have gone through some updates over the years, but still the TT doesn't use hardpoints. Only TWO video games ( this one will make three) have used hardpoints. That I know of anyways...never played any if the console games like Mech Assault.
The TT license holders are not doing that. Where the heck did you get that idea from? This is not the TT game.
Secondly.
The TT customization system in Strat Ops (which the customization system levels are explained under refit kits, but are not required for customization) sets forth what is required to customize a 'mech at each level:
Class A Refit (Field): This kit allows players to replace one weapon with another of the same category and with the same (or fewer) critical spaces (including ammunition). For example, players may replace a medium laser with a medium pulse laser or ER medium laser, or replace an AC/10 with an LB 10-X AC, and so on.
If you stop here (Class A) you now have virtual hardpoints that only allow for equal type and smaller sizes. You need at least access to tools that would be available in the field to do this level of work.
Class B Refit (Field): This kit allows replacement of one category of weapon with another class, but with the same or fewer critical spaces (including ammunition); for example, replacing a machine gun and ammo with a small pulse laser, replacing an AC/10 with an ER large laser, and so on.
If you stop here (Class B) the type restriction goes away and the virtual hardpoints are size restricted only. You need at least access to tools that would be available in the field to do this level of work.
Class C Refit (Maintenance): This kit allows players to replace one type of armor with another (all locations); for example, replacing standard armor with ferro-fibrous. A Class C kit also enables replacement of a weapon or item of equipment with any other, even if it is larger than the item(s) being replaced; for example, replacing an ER large laser with an LRM-10 launcher and ammunition. Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution, move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink.
This level (Class C) is where these virtual hardpoints go away, and everything is unrestricted as long as the new part replaces an item in the same location.You need at least access to tools that would be available in the Maintenance or Mechbay to do this level of work.
Class D Refit (Maintenance): This kit permits players to install a new item where previously there was none, or to install an ECM suite, C3 system or targeting computer. Players may also change heat sink types or engine ratings (but not the engine type). Finally, a Class D kit allows players to replace a location with a custom part.
This level (Class D) allows for near unlimited customization with a few exception covered under Class E and F (and those require a factory.) You need at least access to tools that would be available in the Maintenance or Mechbay to do this level of work.
Note also that the kits do not matter if you want to customize you can do it anyways as long as you have access to the appropriate level of tools. (field bay, maintenance bay, Factory)
Hardpoints abstract away this customization system by—specifically for this game—removing the ability of Class B and lower customization to allow type change, and removing Class Ds ability to place weapons anywhere in chassis. At that point you have hardpoints just like this game.
If you don't like the system that's okay. If you want full unrestricted customization, that's okay (I personally would want something that more closely adheres to the above that does include type changing). If you want a completely different customization system, that's fine too. But please stop saying there's nothing in TT to justify hardpoints. It is just not true. The above explanation is how it is arrived at.
Okay, let's take one book that came out 20 years, and modified customization rules, when for 20 years it was never a problem, but whatever.
What is in a factory that a decent mech bay won't have to do any sort of custom swap of a weapon of one type to another? I'm talking a conversion of say a catapult to a k2 let's say, or a hunchback to a sway back.
What sort of tools would be required that a decent mech bay won't have?
What is in a factory that a decent mech bay won't have to do any sort of custom swap of a weapon of one type to another? I'm talking a conversion of say a catapult to a k2 let's say, or a hunchback to a sway back.
What sort of tools would be required that a decent mech bay won't have?
Let's not even get into the fact that our techs can take 3 CT cored chassis and manage to make one working until in the Argo mech bays, hell in the leopards bay for that matter. It seems like a lot more of an engineering feat to me to cobble together three pieces of CT when they've all been destroyed than a less intense swapping of a hardpoint into another.
Seems like it should be very possible to do any kind of customization in a halfway decent mech bay to me. It's always been that way up until the stategic ops changed it to needing maintenance and factory facilities anyways. Seems like they're trying to shoehorn in some things that came about from a video game if you want to call it a " hardpoint" in TT.
Seems like it should be very possible to do any kind of customization in a halfway decent mech bay to me. It's always been that way up until the stategic ops changed it to needing maintenance and factory facilities anyways. Seems like they're trying to shoehorn in some things that came about from a video game if you want to call it a " hardpoint" in TT.
The customization system in Strat Ops is the current canon as to how customization is been done, and supersedes older rules. It is not trying to shoehorn video game mechanics into the TT game. It is an expansion and replacement of the previous rules (from the mercenary handbook:3055* which I have not read but is somewhat similar from what I gather, though less complex) to in theory add more depth and complexity (your mileage may vary on this part). This is something that is normal progression in tt where many rules have been overhauled and expanded upon over the years.
Class E (Factory) refit:
No changes are made to the unit, but old parts are renovated or replaced, new or updated software installed and so on.
Refurbishment is a Grade E refit and requires access to Factory-grade facilities. The base time required is a week for a vehicle, battle armor unit or ProtoMech, two weeks for a ’Mech, aerospace fighter or Small Craft, a month for a DropShip or JumpShip, or three months for a WarShip or Space Station. The cost is equal to 10 percent of the unit’s base value (not modified for quality).
Successful refurbishment improves the unit’s Quality Rating by one level, or the Quality Rating of each individual component if players are using this depth of detail. It is not possible to go beyond a rating of F.
No changes are made to the unit, but old parts are renovated or replaced, new or updated software installed and so on.
Refurbishment is a Grade E refit and requires access to Factory-grade facilities. The base time required is a week for a vehicle, battle armor unit or ProtoMech, two weeks for a ’Mech, aerospace fighter or Small Craft, a month for a DropShip or JumpShip, or three months for a WarShip or Space Station. The cost is equal to 10 percent of the unit’s base value (not modified for quality).
Successful refurbishment improves the unit’s Quality Rating by one level, or the Quality Rating of each individual component if players are using this depth of detail. It is not possible to go beyond a rating of F.
Class F Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change a unit’s internal structure type (all locations), engine type, gyro type, or cockpit type. If a fusion engine is replaced by another type of power plant, i.e. Fission or ICE, then the total number of heat sinks mounted should be adjusted as indicated on the bonus heat sink table
This class is not needed for this game because we don't have access different types of engines, gyros, or cockpits.
Does it make complete sense that a Maintenance bay can't do some of the stuff a factory can? Not completely, but those are how it's set up currently.
I am not arguing that though.
What I am arguing is that hardpoints can be justified as being derived from the customization system in tabletop. That is all. And going from what I have seen in the rules, hardpoints are reasonably derived from—and abstracting to a somewhat simpler/more controlable version of—the customization system in TT, and choosing to completely disregard those rules in TT, does not change that.
Previously, the Mercenary's Handbook: 3055 described three types of refit kits, graded from A (the hardest to apply) to C (the easiest). Grade A refit kits usually require a repair platform; Grade B refit kits are possible (if difficult) to install even without a repair platform, and Grade C refit kits only contain weapons and electronics that can be installed or swapped in the field. Where the modification cannot easily be carried out in the field, it is suggested that installation of the upgrade kit at a suitable facility is part of the parcel.
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I'll accept your thoughts on that, but I still believe that hardpoints came about strictly as a video game mechanic because some people in MW 3 multiplayer kept seeing the same sort of laser/gun boats as the favored meta build. They created them in MW 4 to counter some of that, and I'd have to check timelines (later since I'm at work and it's difficult on only a phone to do in depth research), but I'm willing to bet that stategic ops came out after MW4. So it came up with a mechanic to narrow down how customization could be done. Just my thoughts on why CGL added in that particular mechanic.
Bringing it back to refit kits though, I still think their existence proves hardpoints don't exist based on the previous lore and rules, and that they can magically change one theoretical set of hardpoints into another. See above with the hard drive analogy. The hard way can be done without any sort of manufacturing facility at all, just a soldering iron, a bit of knowledge, and a skilled hand. The sata adapter would be the equivalent of a refit kit, and simplifying the process of converting one connector (hardpoint if you will) to another. Ugh I keep getting interrupted with customers this morning and losing my train of thought...hell a complete derailment with casualties it feels like.
Bringing it back to refit kits though, I still think their existence proves hardpoints don't exist based on the previous lore and rules, and that they can magically change one theoretical set of hardpoints into another. See above with the hard drive analogy. The hard way can be done without any sort of manufacturing facility at all, just a soldering iron, a bit of knowledge, and a skilled hand. The sata adapter would be the equivalent of a refit kit, and simplifying the process of converting one connector (hardpoint if you will) to another. Ugh I keep getting interrupted with customers this morning and losing my train of thought...hell a complete derailment with casualties it feels like.
First, CGL was extrapolating/rewriting the refit rules set forth in Mercenary's Handbook 3055 which was released in 1993 that put forth restrictions on what was allowed to be customized via restrictive refit kits. That is before MW3/4/MWO/5. You are correct that strat ops (2009) came out after MW4(2000). Seven years after a restrictive customization system was released (1993).
Second, I don't care if hardpoints exist in TT or not (they don't) I am only arguing that hardpoints are a reasonable justifiable abstraction of the TT rules put forth previously that can be used to limit game breaking builds (both in single and multiplayer), and reign in the amount of art assets that need to be produced.
That's it.
All I ask is to stop saying they can't be justied to be used in the game because there was never a similar system in TT, because there is, and has been for some time. You don't have to like hardpoints. That's okay. Just please stop saying they can't be justified as a mechanic; they are justifiable as an abstraction of the customization systems.
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PRINCESS!!! In both the positive strong, independent and caring Disney way and the ultra high-maintenance and bratty MTV way.
And she returns with her usual style and grace
Of course! Imma Lady!
Did some family research and found out that its something I can actually pursue. Its a lot of work for something that doesn't mean anything anymore other than the novelty of being called 'Lady Hatchy'. But its still kinda cool.
Its only @Timaeus I would force to call me 'Lady Hatchy'. To everyone else I would still be known as 'That Crazy Shut-In'.
Really, caring yes I'll give you that one, but do we have the same definitions for positive, strong and independent? Other than two exceptions (Merida (which is still debatable) and Moana) I can't think of any other Disney princess that fits those words (not counting the non-Disney branded stuff like Star Wars and Marvel etc) as most don't seem to be able to fulfill all three of those.
Also not the greatest Disney fan.
You can't say something like that and leave it hanging, details girl, details!
Yes please, gotta know if weums needs ta bow or curtsie or pavaine. and by any chance do you get a haunted castle out of the deal? I hear those are fun.
and by any chance do you get a haunted castle out of the deal? I hear those are fun.
Huh...just noticed some of the other functions about notifications. Didn't know who liked what before...still getting used to this place...doesn't feel like home, just feels like rental space in a former medical administration building.
Well, there are only 2 living grandchildren (me dad is one of them) left and only a handful of great grandchildren of families that were extremely prominent in Plymouth during the early part of the 20th century.
Like I said, means nothing at this point in history, but knowing that I had family that were Master Mason's that one was in charge of administering the POW work camps in Southern England is more interesting than the title. The title is just a novelty.
My father is 83 this year, he comes from a time that was very, very different and getting to pick his brain was very valuable. My kids got to hear about these stories of what life in wartime England was like first hand...there really isn't a price that can be put on that.
I could get water and mining rights, but no haunted castle.
And you would bow to me. Lower than you would the Queen.
Well, there are only 2 living grandchildren (me dad is one of them) left and only a handful of great grandchildren of families that were extremely prominent in Plymouth during the early part of the 20th century.
Like I said, means nothing at this point in history, but knowing that I had family that were Master Mason's that one was in charge of administering the POW work camps in Southern England is more interesting than the title. The title is just a novelty.
My father is 83 this year, he comes from a time that was very, very different and getting to pick his brain was very valuable. My kids got to hear about these stories of what life in wartime England was like first hand...there really isn't a price that can be put on that.
Yes please, gotta know if weums needs ta bow or curtsie or pavaine.
I could get water and mining rights, but no haunted castle.
And you would bow to me. Lower than you would the Queen.
If a basic Terran title allows me the Clam title of ilKhan, I guess thats worth me going through the paperwork.
Clam Chartreuse Goat!
Its only @Timaeus I would force to call me 'Lady Hatchy'. To everyone else I would still be known as 'That Crazy Shut-In'.
TREASON!!!!!
I'd come over and execute you but you seem like a nice girl so I'll let you off this time.
And it's so not because I'm too lazy to do it.
Go Clan Determined Sloth
Oh, and I know how amazing it is listening to people's stories of life during the war, it's one of the cooler parts of my job!
still haven't seen your builds, post them so we can have a look. Always easy to nitpick
What exactly do my "builds" have to do with victory conditions or combat mechanics?
the fact that you just keep yapping but don't provide anything of your own to compare with