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brantodb01

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Is it just me or are these nations just really boring to play now, it takes ages to do anything fun.
Sure all of it is really cool and interesting but it just feels really boring to play after a year or two has passsed.
I have the same problem with Kaisereich and The New Order, really cool mods, really boring to play.
 
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I appreciate the depth of the non-war aspects, which is a refreshing change, but I feel like ultimately, since this is a war game, the war focuses shouldn't be so difficult to get to. Not being able to get wargoals as Turkey until late 1940 is ridiculous and pretty much means your game is over before it even begins. Bulgaria will already be in the Axis and Greece will either already be conquered by the Axis or will be part of the Allies. So unless you want to go to war with the most powerful nation in the games as a somewhat weak mid-tier countries, you can't complete the focus tree. Very disappointing. Pretty much every mod that adds a focus tree to Turkey lets you start conquering by around 38-39.
 
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Agreed. Turkey is somehow less fun to play now. Sure it is more realistic to be pretty much paralyzed, but it is absolutely not fun. 90% of the gamed is just the focus tree and decisions. By the time you actually get to the meat of things, WW2 is halfway over and the countries you want to conquer are gone.

Paradox. Stop with the 70 day focuses.
 
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brantodb01

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Just as reference for how many 70 day focuses of time it takes for minor nations to become a power in their most powerful tree:
Portugal: 8
Hungary: 7
Mexico: 10
Chinese Minors: 7-10 depending on PP
Romania: 8+ (about the fastest I've managed to pump out enough divs to do their Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Hungary focuses)
Poland: 5 + however fast you manage to eat lithuania
Netherlands: 6+ (tbh I think lead the minor democracies is the most fun tree for the Netherlands)

And then

Turkey: 19 (Not even gaining territory, just becoming the ottomans)
Greece: 7 (but you'll probably lose the war without any industry focuses)
Bulgaria: n/a (I've spent most of the day trying to form the free balkan states and it took me to mid 41 to get all of them close to being communist, just form them to do some focuses and remove all the influence I'd spent ages (with cheated spies and PP) building up)
 
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I appreciate the depth of the non-war aspects, which is a refreshing change, but I feel like ultimately, since this is a war game, the war focuses shouldn't be so difficult to get to. Not being able to get wargoals as Turkey until late 1940 is ridiculous and pretty much means your game is over before it even begins. Bulgaria will already be in the Axis and Greece will either already be conquered by the Axis or will be part of the Allies. So unless you want to go to war with the most powerful nation in the games as a somewhat weak mid-tier countries, you can't complete the focus tree. Very disappointing. Pretty much every mod that adds a focus tree to Turkey lets you start conquering by around 38-39.

Considering that WW2 proper doesn't really kick off until 1939-ish, this doesn't really seem all that unreasonable to me.
 
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I'm OK with having to wait until 1939, but having played a game of both Greece and Turkey just now, I can honestly say that there's a fun component missing. Maybe I'll try with historical focuses off and see if makes a difference.
 
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brantodb01

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Considering that WW2 proper doesn't really kick off until 1939-ish, this doesn't really seem all that unreasonable to me.
I play games to have game impact, you can do this by either being strong or specialised. When playing single player you can't specialise effectively because you're playing with the AI, dominate navally all you want you cant get the AI to do the Naval invasions you've made available for it.
And then to get strong as a minor you need some early wars/unifications to boost your power, which is the issue
 
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TalyonUngol

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Just as reference for how many 70 day focuses of time it takes for minor nations to become a power in their most powerful tree:
Portugal: 8
Hungary: 7
Mexico: 10
Chinese Minors: 7-10 depending on PP
Romania: 8+ (about the fastest I've managed to pump out enough divs to do their Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Hungary focuses)
Poland: 5 + however fast you manage to eat lithuania
Netherlands: 6+ (tbh I think lead the minor democracies is the most fun tree for the Netherlands)

And then

Turkey: 19 (Not even gaining territory, just becoming the ottomans)
Greece: 7 (but you'll probably lose the war without any industry focuses)
Bulgaria: n/a (I've spent most of the day trying to form the free balkan states and it took me to mid 41 to get all of them close to being communist, just form them to do some focuses and remove all the influence I'd spent ages (with cheated spies and PP) building up)

Bigger trees don't mean better if you can't progress through them in a timely fashion.
 
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Considering that WW2 proper doesn't really kick off until 1939-ish, this doesn't really seem all that unreasonable to me.

1939 is fine, at the latest. But by 1940 all the countries in Europe that you have future wargoals against will already be involved in WW2 and either conquered by the Axis, allied with them, or part of the Allies, so you basically can't go after any of them without getting dragged into a fight you can't win.
 
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Just as reference for how many 70 day focuses of time it takes for minor nations to become a power in their most powerful tree:
Portugal: 8
Hungary: 7
Mexico: 10
Chinese Minors: 7-10 depending on PP
Romania: 8+ (about the fastest I've managed to pump out enough divs to do their Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Hungary focuses)
Poland: 5 + however fast you manage to eat lithuania
Netherlands: 6+ (tbh I think lead the minor democracies is the most fun tree for the Netherlands)

And then

Turkey: 19 (Not even gaining territory, just becoming the ottomans)
Greece: 7 (but you'll probably lose the war without any industry focuses)
Bulgaria: n/a (I've spent most of the day trying to form the free balkan states and it took me to mid 41 to get all of them close to being communist, just form them to do some focuses and remove all the influence I'd spent ages (with cheated spies and PP) building up)

It's true these old countries should be added 10-20+ focuses and problems, because it's way too fast and too easy.

I disagree about Romania. You can easily raise Hungary at 4 focus, so at 6 you already have Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.


But seriously. I am a bit surprised that fun = very easy click 5-10 focus times to turn into an empire. That is why I am defending a good (although not without problems) direction, in my opinion, which is marked by Turkey.
 
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It's true these old countries should be added 10-20+ focuses and problems, because it's way too fast and too easy.

I disagree about Romania. You can easily raise Hungary at 4 focus, so at 6 you already have Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.


But seriously. I am a bit surprised that fun = very easy click 5-10 focus times to turn into an empire. That is why I am defending a good (although not without problems) direction, in my opinion, which is marked by Turkey.

To clarify, I like playing Paradox games to found an empire not play as a toady the entire game. I want to spend a couple of years building up and getting a couple of expands and then using it to fight. You could say just don't play minors then but making a game less fun for realism purposes defeats the point of it being a game and I'm just not gonna buy that content.

I'd agree with you more that getting your empire later as a minor would make more sense and could be fun but late game hoi is crap the AI is gonna have more than enough divisions to crush you if you make a move, there are only really 4 peace conferences possible by that point, where you'll get out bid in anyway because you're too small to get enough casualties for enough points.

The only way I see Turkey working as is, is if they did a timeline extension for everyone else and added some kind of war exhaustion for post war so Turkey could then be free to make some moves before a cold war scenario really begins and even with this it's a lot of waiting before you can actually play.
 
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But seriously. I am a bit surprised that fun = very easy click 5-10 focus times to turn into an empire. That is why I am defending a good (although not without problems) direction, in my opinion, which is marked by Turkey.

For me, rather than it taking forever to get wargoals, or turn into an empire with a click of a focus isn't the issue, but well... the filler in certain parts of the focus trees due to their increasing size.

Stuff like "+5 Stability" or "1x Air Doctrine boost" focusses could be reduced to 35 days, or even 45, if 35 is too much, but 70 days for such a minor boost in a focus tree with focuses worth till1950 is tad much IMO.
 
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Cobannos

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I had a blast trying out Bulgaria (non-aligned with Ferdinand) and Greece (fascist Byzantium). I think they are really great to play around with. Turkey on the other hand is boring. Tried the Ottoman path six times and always failed miserably. Either I ended up fighting both Allies and Axis or some uber alliance when playing without historical focuses. Cannot beat that with so limited ressources. I tried both playing more laid back and building industry etc. and rushing Ottoman conquest. Always the same outcome.
 

Adrianuse

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To clarify, I like playing Paradox games to found an empire not play as a toady the entire game. I want to spend a couple of years building up and getting a couple of expands and then using it to fight. You could say just don't play minors then but making a game less fun for realism purposes defeats the point of it being a game and I'm just not gonna buy that content.

I'd agree with you more that getting your empire later as a minor would make more sense and could be fun but late game hoi is crap the AI is gonna have more than enough divisions to crush you if you make a move, there are only really 4 peace conferences possible by that point, where you'll get out bid in anyway because you're too small to get enough casualties for enough points.

The only way I see Turkey working as is, is if they did a timeline extension for everyone else and added some kind of war exhaustion for post war so Turkey could then be free to make some moves before a cold war scenario really begins and even with this it's a lot of waiting before you can actually play.

Sure. I am writing absolutely subjectively. I prefer to play ahistorically minor countries and actually building an empire (or bigger country) is sometimes fun.

However, I would like it to be a challenge that dealing with numerous problems that a small country has (which are in fact the reason why it is weak) would be complicated and engaging.

I like the tree of the Netherlands or Mexico because I do have the potential to do so, although in both cases it is a bit too easy. It is more difficult with Mexico because, for example, the war over Colombia, Venezuela, or Peru may end badly. It's nice, however, that in Mexico you have to deal with rebels, balance between the church and atheists, etc. Even if it's done imperfectly, it's a nice direction.


For this reason, I will defend new trees, because I feel them as an extension of that idea. Your country is weak and has a lot of problems, what will you do about it? What is your priority, what you can skip, etc. Decisions in short.
I also like growing focus trees because they make you can't get it all and sometimes there are some equally nice things. Decisions again.

I also have other experiences, defeating the major in 41-42 is possible, and even seizing some lands for yourself, especially when you play ahistorically where the war can be different. The AI creates quite weak division designs and you can often make its army with a decisive hit, whether it is an efficient landing or an attack by an armored division or even on infantry after it bleeds out against your lines.
 
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Cpt.Cross

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Just make every focus in Turkeys tree 35 Days and this would solve most of its problems Its not OP as turkey has nothing in its tree to make it so.

you could give it all the construction and war support buffs you want. You could give it war goals on everybody its still a nation with a small manpower pool and industry and has 4 out of 7 Majors on its border.
 
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Harin

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Personally, I love these new deeper focus trees, but people have legitimate gripes with how long it takes for Turkey, in particular, to get-some-while-the-getting-is-good.

Since HOI4 seems to have every nation in that area owned, guaranteed, conquered, or in an alliance by the time Turkey has an opportunity to make a move, changes are probably in order. A combination of changes could include: 1) reduce the time frame on many of Turkey's focuses, 2) add a war goal or two for Turkey that can trigger sooner, so she has something to build on for future expansion, and 3) change how the minor nations in the area are booby-trapped with guarantees and alliance memberships, before Turkey can get its pants on.
 
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TalyonUngol

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Personally, I love these new deeper focus trees, but people have legitimate gripes with how long it takes for Turkey, in particular, to get-some-while-the-getting-is-good.

Since HOI4 seems to have every nation in that area owned, guaranteed, conquered, or in an alliance by the time Turkey has an opportunity to make a move, changes are probably in order. A combination of changes could include: 1) reduce the time frame on many of Turkey's focuses, 2) add a war goal or two for Turkey that can trigger sooner, so she has something to build on for future expansion, and 3) change how the minor nations in the area are booby-trapped with guarantees and alliance memberships, before Turkey can get its pants on.

Multiple parts of their focuses can be combined or shortened. Im not asking for a super power by 1940 but the fact is by the TIME that they can get a single war goal all their potential targets are already either in a faction or gone.
 
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