Well, I don't usually do these things. But it's been several days since BftB released and I've read a lot of comments so I felt like I could participate in the feedback effort.
So, here is my subjective, incomplete review on Greece in BftB~
\First Impressions and Industry
Upon looking at Greece, It seems at first politics will take a big part in the playthrough ; in fact, I have been surprised to notice that it's fairly irrelevant for most of the game. Past the choice of branch after the 1936 election, not much else happens ; the faction management system seems like it's gonna be complex at first, but it's in fact very straighforward, contrasting very much with Bulgaria. This isn't necessarly a problem or a bad point, I'm just saying that this was pretty unexpected.
The main problem of Greece, it seems, is its industry and population. Sandwitched between bonuses and maluses, Greece has several options to grow from its... mediocre starting industry and army. Choosing between taking the time to go down the industrial tree or rush first a strong alliance and bonuses in the political one, and spending PPs first to get rid of the debt, or instead keeping them for bigger investments by shouldering the debt a bit longer - these are the kind of struggles the country offers.
Its situation isn't all that bad, however. The Greek industrial branch is, to my sense, strangely satisfying. The main body possess two sides which tackle the problems in entirely different ways, and both share a central, ladder-like structure that allows the player to personalize its economical choices ; additionally, several of these focuses are, or feel fairly unique and varied in terms of effect (strong PP/civ bonus at peace, free change of economy law, slots and population, focus that gives stronger bonuses if you can get some territory first, or even focuses that give offmap factories depending on international relations), and the whole branch is made of a combination of 70 and 35 days focus, alternating its pacing in a satisfying way. A side branch even offers additional ways to strengthen the industry and country by appealing to foreign countries.
It's not an extremely novel industrial subbranch but for some reasons I am very fond of it.
\Politics and Impressions of War
I have only tryied so far a full game as the pseudo historical path (going through Metaxism->Use the Military->Joining the Allies) and only touched democracy a bit, so I can hardly speak of the paths I didn't take. But at least I can identify them just fine, since the general political structure is completely straighforward. One branch for democracy, with an original option to fall back to fascism and become an empire ; one branch for communism, with a split at the end between Stalin and Not Stalin. One non-aligned branch that can devolve into a fascist, pro-axis one, or a non-aligned one that may join the allies. All in all, a fairly generric, but strong structure : there's a reason it's commonly seen, after all, it's easily readable, and it works.
The war game will revolve around the Balkans a lot (obviously). 3 of these branches offer a wargoal on Bulgaria, and 3 others on Turkey (technically, four). In the likes of Bulgaria, the intended goal is for Greece to be able to wage some wars and possibly gain some lands or puppets prior to the big one if it so wishes. Having played my full game in historical mode, this is exactly what I did : since I knew Bulgaria and Romania eventually join the Axis, I decided to put that wargoal to good use and puppet Bulgaria (more on the whims of my Bulgarian puppet in the bug section...) to make for myself a buffer state between me and the axis.
All, in all, invading Bulgaria early isn't really a problem. They're the one nation the Balkan that starts with an army comparable to yours. They have 50% more mils, sure, but also drastic army restrictions, so against an AI Bulgaria, early enough, it's not too hard to have your ways even if you're not totally ready for war.
After that, came a period of relative peace during which I could bolstered my industry and army further, waiting for the big one to start. Enosis with Cyprus was nice, especially since in my trial attempt the British gave it to me as a dominion which, okay, cool, not useful in the slightest since they have no ressource (like 4 chromium, I don't even lack chromium) or manpower, but cool.
The World War came with well written goals for Greece - get rid of Italy in Albania and the islands, first and foremost. A bit sad to notice that I had waited for "Making use of our Islands" for nothing since you apparently need to OWN, and not CONTROL the involved states for full effect, which can only happen after the war. It's nice, however, that Greece, no matter how weak it starts, has enough potential to field an army capable of taking Albania, a navy that can stand up to the Italian one (I didn't say crush, but it can put up resistance if well prepared), and an airforce that can... actually do stuff, since the axis planes won't have access to good airports in the area. On this front, the balance is well made : you're too poor to crush everything in your path but have just enough to make use of your advantages if you strategize well.
Going to fight elsewhere, however, will stretch the population, probably one of Greece's biggest problem. The failure of a British AI I got had to rely on my help to get Africa under control, all the while forcing me to garrison my ports because they would not help in the Medditteranean half of the time. I usually don't go beyond extensive conscription for good... Well, there's a first for everything. At least I managed to avoid All Adults Serve. Even if by the end of the war I only had 10k men in reserve. Phew.
I have not talked of the Military focus branch, because I didn't lay a finger on it until the eve of the war. It has some interesting bonuses, such as the Land of Mountains and Long and Proud Tradition, and the Hellenic Academy Battleplans decisions are a nice touch. Other than that it's a fairly usual military tree with research bonuses. I found the 4 reserach bonus for subs in the Modern Navy branch a bit excessive since you better not have done a sub research beforehand or one will go to waste, and maybe I'd have swapped it for a more original bonus, like radar or maybe minelaying technology ? But that's all taste.
\Overall Impression in Retrospective
We won the war. It wasn't only thanks to me, I kinda handled Italy and parts of Vichy both on my own (and helped a lot with Africa) but Germany was taken by the allies and soviets before I could truly go there.
Overall, I had a lot of fun. The Greek focus tree is simple, but very effective, easy to understand, and has several interesting little quirks or details to it without becoming complex. The Nation itself is well balanced between a sad initial situation and a good enough potential even without reforming entire empires. You can totally dip your toes into army, navy and airforce equally if you make your buildup well. You won't be the cutting edge nation with the best on every side, but you have the potential to be a great help on some sides and do a bit of all you may need.
I don't ask much more from my minors. Greece does not have a subversive, never-seen before gameplay, but it's going strong in its simplicity and that makes it very fun.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID... There are still some, erm, details that I have encountered and put a damp on the fun a little. Minor things, mostly, a couple small bugs that I'm sure paradox will fix in the next week - but this is a review so I shall mention these things anyway.
\Small bad points of the playthrough
1- This is not a bug, and not really related to BftB, but I need to mention it. I'm not one to cry about the peace conferences often, it's a flawed system but everyone knows it, rework will come (eventually), and horrible gore added to weird behavior that resulted in three Frances sharing France despite an allied victory is not necessarly something that horrifies me especially since it doesn't impact me that much. However, With the Soviet Union deciding to purely and simply annex, Albania, Northern Epirus, and the Dodecanese islands, I must admit I was somewhat pissed. I mean, fine for Albania and Norther Epirus, there's only a claim on the last one, but the Dodecanese are a core of mine. I know the soviets are a big state that follows its own, communist rules, was in a different faction, and had an overwhelmingly larger war participation score than my meager 10%. Still, considering I fought an entire war for like, 6 islands east of me, and was left with no choice but to either resign myself to getting nothing, or take some colonial states hundreds of kilometers away from me if I wanted something... Well, I'm a bit mad. Feels like I did it all for nowt.
2- So, when I said the British granted me enosis with Cyprus, they did. But in the event was offered a choice to refuse it. Don't know why, since I asked for it and they gave me what I asked for. In itself it wouldn't be a problem (I can just not take that choice), but I'm not sure that choice should even be there. It wasn't properly localized and only showed its id instead of text... woops. Little bug there. It doesn't bother gameplay at all but it's not pretty.
3-
Carriage return after the number. It means it's big.
Like I mentionned, I puppeted Bulgaria. So far, so good. Few months later, I get an event "Bulgaria joins the Axis". Hum. I'm in the Allies. Sure enough, my Bulgarian puppet also is in the Allies. But it still was able to complete "Join the Tripartite Pact" ? Erf, that's the Yugoslavian bug all over again. Seems like focusesto join a faction that have no failsafe in case you're already in a faction are a curse of the Balkans. Doesn't bother gameplay, but ugly.
EXCEPT... It doesn't stop there. Bulgaria's Join the Tripartite Pact focus has another effect. it marks some states for Bulgaria so that they are automatically transfered to itif Bulgaria andthe nation that owns them are in the same faction with Germany. I've seen many people pissed at the fact that this cannot be refused. Personally, I'm fine with it in a normal playthrough.It represents Germany bossing around minor states of its faction by redrawing the borders as it pleases, and is kind of the drawback to allying with a nation that wants to control the world. It's an interesting price to pay for Germany's protection. I'm not against the concept.
But once again... There's no failsafe. In my case, Germany was not in my faction (the allies). So, it's fine. Except that after the war... Germany was puppeted. By me, mind you. And thus the state modifiers triggered and my German puppet commanded me to give two core states to my Bulgarian puppet.
Paradox plz. Put some failsafe in these triggers. Being bossed around by a world superpower and unable to protest in logical (pissing of but I'm okay with the concept). Being bossed around by your own puppet states isn't.
I'll take this opportunity to note that this isn't the only Bulgarian mechanic or focus that lacks failsafe. Joining the Allies can also be done whilst already in a faction. For some reasons however, Joining the Comintern cannot. Weird.
4- I ran in "troubles" with the decision "Go To Paris to Negociate Investment Talks". Well, when I say troubles, I mean that it seems to have a condition that France owns Ile de France and has not capitulated, but for some reasons was still available despite France having relocated to some remote Pacific Islands after the unavoidable wave of panzer. So, yay, cool, still a bug tho~
5-
Yup, another carriage return. It's big again.
I wanna talk about the SCHACHTPLAN. There's a democratic branch focus to get rid of it. A Communist branch one. A fascist subbranch one. And one on the monarchist side branch. But on the Metaxism->Use the Military path, it remains. FOREVER.
I was like "this is a trade and industrial pact between Germany and Greece. Surely it gets removed if Greece gets at war with Germany". Well, it does not. I was stuck with it forever. Les consumer goods andmore civ build speed is cool but somewhere during the war I started SERIOUSLY lacking ressources despite all my excavation and that was because 110% of my ressources went to the world market. I kinda would have preferred getting rid of the thing please.
I thought maybe rebuking german investments would have done it. Nope. It just won't go away. Plz halp. I'm stuck in a trade deal with my enemy.
6- Not a bug, just a tooltip design question. "Open Foreign Subsidized Factories" mentions that 80 or greater opinion with GER, FRA, ENG or SOV will grant additional factories. Cool, nice. Bedrock of Balkan Financial Stability tooltip only claims that "high friendly opinion" of Greece amongst Balkan nations will grant factories. What is "high friendly opinion" ? Is it also 80 ? Is there a reason why no number is mentionned there ?
7- Decision categories disappear entirely when no decisions within them are visible. So sometimes, the debt to the ifi tab can blink in and out of existence over the months. It's not practical when you wanna check the state of your debt and the tab is just not there.
\A Final word
All in all, these small problems were fairly minor. They didn't bother my fun too much and I'll hold no grudge if at least the minor bugs I mentionned are fixed over the next weeks. Greece was a fun nation and the first playthrough of BftB that I took through the whole world war. I will most certainly replay that again and explore its other political paths.
With that, I've added my stone to the feedback wall and hope somebody might find the above lines useful. I may or may not come back later with an also positive but very different review for Bulgaria.
On that, have a nice... Well, erm, night, since I'm writing that at like 3am. Butterfly flies away~
So, here is my subjective, incomplete review on Greece in BftB~
\First Impressions and Industry
Upon looking at Greece, It seems at first politics will take a big part in the playthrough ; in fact, I have been surprised to notice that it's fairly irrelevant for most of the game. Past the choice of branch after the 1936 election, not much else happens ; the faction management system seems like it's gonna be complex at first, but it's in fact very straighforward, contrasting very much with Bulgaria. This isn't necessarly a problem or a bad point, I'm just saying that this was pretty unexpected.
The main problem of Greece, it seems, is its industry and population. Sandwitched between bonuses and maluses, Greece has several options to grow from its... mediocre starting industry and army. Choosing between taking the time to go down the industrial tree or rush first a strong alliance and bonuses in the political one, and spending PPs first to get rid of the debt, or instead keeping them for bigger investments by shouldering the debt a bit longer - these are the kind of struggles the country offers.
Its situation isn't all that bad, however. The Greek industrial branch is, to my sense, strangely satisfying. The main body possess two sides which tackle the problems in entirely different ways, and both share a central, ladder-like structure that allows the player to personalize its economical choices ; additionally, several of these focuses are, or feel fairly unique and varied in terms of effect (strong PP/civ bonus at peace, free change of economy law, slots and population, focus that gives stronger bonuses if you can get some territory first, or even focuses that give offmap factories depending on international relations), and the whole branch is made of a combination of 70 and 35 days focus, alternating its pacing in a satisfying way. A side branch even offers additional ways to strengthen the industry and country by appealing to foreign countries.
It's not an extremely novel industrial subbranch but for some reasons I am very fond of it.
\Politics and Impressions of War
I have only tryied so far a full game as the pseudo historical path (going through Metaxism->Use the Military->Joining the Allies) and only touched democracy a bit, so I can hardly speak of the paths I didn't take. But at least I can identify them just fine, since the general political structure is completely straighforward. One branch for democracy, with an original option to fall back to fascism and become an empire ; one branch for communism, with a split at the end between Stalin and Not Stalin. One non-aligned branch that can devolve into a fascist, pro-axis one, or a non-aligned one that may join the allies. All in all, a fairly generric, but strong structure : there's a reason it's commonly seen, after all, it's easily readable, and it works.
The war game will revolve around the Balkans a lot (obviously). 3 of these branches offer a wargoal on Bulgaria, and 3 others on Turkey (technically, four). In the likes of Bulgaria, the intended goal is for Greece to be able to wage some wars and possibly gain some lands or puppets prior to the big one if it so wishes. Having played my full game in historical mode, this is exactly what I did : since I knew Bulgaria and Romania eventually join the Axis, I decided to put that wargoal to good use and puppet Bulgaria (more on the whims of my Bulgarian puppet in the bug section...) to make for myself a buffer state between me and the axis.
All, in all, invading Bulgaria early isn't really a problem. They're the one nation the Balkan that starts with an army comparable to yours. They have 50% more mils, sure, but also drastic army restrictions, so against an AI Bulgaria, early enough, it's not too hard to have your ways even if you're not totally ready for war.
After that, came a period of relative peace during which I could bolstered my industry and army further, waiting for the big one to start. Enosis with Cyprus was nice, especially since in my trial attempt the British gave it to me as a dominion which, okay, cool, not useful in the slightest since they have no ressource (like 4 chromium, I don't even lack chromium) or manpower, but cool.
The World War came with well written goals for Greece - get rid of Italy in Albania and the islands, first and foremost. A bit sad to notice that I had waited for "Making use of our Islands" for nothing since you apparently need to OWN, and not CONTROL the involved states for full effect, which can only happen after the war. It's nice, however, that Greece, no matter how weak it starts, has enough potential to field an army capable of taking Albania, a navy that can stand up to the Italian one (I didn't say crush, but it can put up resistance if well prepared), and an airforce that can... actually do stuff, since the axis planes won't have access to good airports in the area. On this front, the balance is well made : you're too poor to crush everything in your path but have just enough to make use of your advantages if you strategize well.
Going to fight elsewhere, however, will stretch the population, probably one of Greece's biggest problem. The failure of a British AI I got had to rely on my help to get Africa under control, all the while forcing me to garrison my ports because they would not help in the Medditteranean half of the time. I usually don't go beyond extensive conscription for good... Well, there's a first for everything. At least I managed to avoid All Adults Serve. Even if by the end of the war I only had 10k men in reserve. Phew.
I have not talked of the Military focus branch, because I didn't lay a finger on it until the eve of the war. It has some interesting bonuses, such as the Land of Mountains and Long and Proud Tradition, and the Hellenic Academy Battleplans decisions are a nice touch. Other than that it's a fairly usual military tree with research bonuses. I found the 4 reserach bonus for subs in the Modern Navy branch a bit excessive since you better not have done a sub research beforehand or one will go to waste, and maybe I'd have swapped it for a more original bonus, like radar or maybe minelaying technology ? But that's all taste.
\Overall Impression in Retrospective
We won the war. It wasn't only thanks to me, I kinda handled Italy and parts of Vichy both on my own (and helped a lot with Africa) but Germany was taken by the allies and soviets before I could truly go there.
Overall, I had a lot of fun. The Greek focus tree is simple, but very effective, easy to understand, and has several interesting little quirks or details to it without becoming complex. The Nation itself is well balanced between a sad initial situation and a good enough potential even without reforming entire empires. You can totally dip your toes into army, navy and airforce equally if you make your buildup well. You won't be the cutting edge nation with the best on every side, but you have the potential to be a great help on some sides and do a bit of all you may need.
I don't ask much more from my minors. Greece does not have a subversive, never-seen before gameplay, but it's going strong in its simplicity and that makes it very fun.
THAT HAVING BEEN SAID... There are still some, erm, details that I have encountered and put a damp on the fun a little. Minor things, mostly, a couple small bugs that I'm sure paradox will fix in the next week - but this is a review so I shall mention these things anyway.
\Small bad points of the playthrough
1- This is not a bug, and not really related to BftB, but I need to mention it. I'm not one to cry about the peace conferences often, it's a flawed system but everyone knows it, rework will come (eventually), and horrible gore added to weird behavior that resulted in three Frances sharing France despite an allied victory is not necessarly something that horrifies me especially since it doesn't impact me that much. However, With the Soviet Union deciding to purely and simply annex, Albania, Northern Epirus, and the Dodecanese islands, I must admit I was somewhat pissed. I mean, fine for Albania and Norther Epirus, there's only a claim on the last one, but the Dodecanese are a core of mine. I know the soviets are a big state that follows its own, communist rules, was in a different faction, and had an overwhelmingly larger war participation score than my meager 10%. Still, considering I fought an entire war for like, 6 islands east of me, and was left with no choice but to either resign myself to getting nothing, or take some colonial states hundreds of kilometers away from me if I wanted something... Well, I'm a bit mad. Feels like I did it all for nowt.
2- So, when I said the British granted me enosis with Cyprus, they did. But in the event was offered a choice to refuse it. Don't know why, since I asked for it and they gave me what I asked for. In itself it wouldn't be a problem (I can just not take that choice), but I'm not sure that choice should even be there. It wasn't properly localized and only showed its id instead of text... woops. Little bug there. It doesn't bother gameplay at all but it's not pretty.
3-
Carriage return after the number. It means it's big.
Like I mentionned, I puppeted Bulgaria. So far, so good. Few months later, I get an event "Bulgaria joins the Axis". Hum. I'm in the Allies. Sure enough, my Bulgarian puppet also is in the Allies. But it still was able to complete "Join the Tripartite Pact" ? Erf, that's the Yugoslavian bug all over again. Seems like focusesto join a faction that have no failsafe in case you're already in a faction are a curse of the Balkans. Doesn't bother gameplay, but ugly.
EXCEPT... It doesn't stop there. Bulgaria's Join the Tripartite Pact focus has another effect. it marks some states for Bulgaria so that they are automatically transfered to itif Bulgaria andthe nation that owns them are in the same faction with Germany. I've seen many people pissed at the fact that this cannot be refused. Personally, I'm fine with it in a normal playthrough.It represents Germany bossing around minor states of its faction by redrawing the borders as it pleases, and is kind of the drawback to allying with a nation that wants to control the world. It's an interesting price to pay for Germany's protection. I'm not against the concept.
But once again... There's no failsafe. In my case, Germany was not in my faction (the allies). So, it's fine. Except that after the war... Germany was puppeted. By me, mind you. And thus the state modifiers triggered and my German puppet commanded me to give two core states to my Bulgarian puppet.
Paradox plz. Put some failsafe in these triggers. Being bossed around by a world superpower and unable to protest in logical (pissing of but I'm okay with the concept). Being bossed around by your own puppet states isn't.
I'll take this opportunity to note that this isn't the only Bulgarian mechanic or focus that lacks failsafe. Joining the Allies can also be done whilst already in a faction. For some reasons however, Joining the Comintern cannot. Weird.
4- I ran in "troubles" with the decision "Go To Paris to Negociate Investment Talks". Well, when I say troubles, I mean that it seems to have a condition that France owns Ile de France and has not capitulated, but for some reasons was still available despite France having relocated to some remote Pacific Islands after the unavoidable wave of panzer. So, yay, cool, still a bug tho~
5-
Yup, another carriage return. It's big again.
I wanna talk about the SCHACHTPLAN. There's a democratic branch focus to get rid of it. A Communist branch one. A fascist subbranch one. And one on the monarchist side branch. But on the Metaxism->Use the Military path, it remains. FOREVER.
I was like "this is a trade and industrial pact between Germany and Greece. Surely it gets removed if Greece gets at war with Germany". Well, it does not. I was stuck with it forever. Les consumer goods andmore civ build speed is cool but somewhere during the war I started SERIOUSLY lacking ressources despite all my excavation and that was because 110% of my ressources went to the world market. I kinda would have preferred getting rid of the thing please.
I thought maybe rebuking german investments would have done it. Nope. It just won't go away. Plz halp. I'm stuck in a trade deal with my enemy.
6- Not a bug, just a tooltip design question. "Open Foreign Subsidized Factories" mentions that 80 or greater opinion with GER, FRA, ENG or SOV will grant additional factories. Cool, nice. Bedrock of Balkan Financial Stability tooltip only claims that "high friendly opinion" of Greece amongst Balkan nations will grant factories. What is "high friendly opinion" ? Is it also 80 ? Is there a reason why no number is mentionned there ?
7- Decision categories disappear entirely when no decisions within them are visible. So sometimes, the debt to the ifi tab can blink in and out of existence over the months. It's not practical when you wanna check the state of your debt and the tab is just not there.
\A Final word
All in all, these small problems were fairly minor. They didn't bother my fun too much and I'll hold no grudge if at least the minor bugs I mentionned are fixed over the next weeks. Greece was a fun nation and the first playthrough of BftB that I took through the whole world war. I will most certainly replay that again and explore its other political paths.
With that, I've added my stone to the feedback wall and hope somebody might find the above lines useful. I may or may not come back later with an also positive but very different review for Bulgaria.
On that, have a nice... Well, erm, night, since I'm writing that at like 3am. Butterfly flies away~
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