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Aug 18, 2001
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It ocurred to me that, since CK will represent mostly a medieval environment and intends to make it quite hard to try for world conquest, then the game should reflect one of the most particular characteristics of the european continent - deep regionalism.

Indeed, this is the characteristic, above all others, that made it so hard for medieval lords to held sway over vast amounts of land.

To sum it up, people at the time [and quite often still today] of isolated communities have a very cold and suspicious attitude towards the «outsider», regardless of ethnic or religious affinities...

I'll give you an example: in my country, we have to regions - Ribatejo (lit. 'Above the Tagus') and Alentejo ('Beyond the Tagus') that are contiguous, even though the Tagus river separates them.

Ethnically and religiously, they are all the same - roman catholic portuguese, are physically separated by just a few miles and have been part of our country for many centuries.

Ribatejo, however, is mainly a cattle-raising region, whereas Alentejo - even though it has cattle of its own - also places some emphasis on agriculture.

Thus, people from the two regions believe that they have «separate identities»: when our government wanted (in order to get more EU subsidies) to join the two regions into one, it faced massive opposition.

«Ribatejans with ribatejans, alentejans with alentejans» was the main motto.

Fact is, many communities - and even more so in miedeaval times - considered themselves to be quite apart from all others, and highly resented «outside» interference. And this was a major problem for mideaval lords, on top of all other ethnic/religious/linguistic/etc problems that might also exist...

[i.e. the prime loyalty is towards the village, not the fief]

Will there be an added «revolt» or tax penalty risk if a players' possessions differ a lot in geography/economy from their main one (i.e. the one where their family was from originally)?

Regards,
Keoland
 

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Enlightened Despot
Jun 6, 2001
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There is already an official(ish) thread dealing with cultures, and just so you know the cultural distinctions will not be that picky... We're talking about a total of 11 cultures (which are of course highly generalized and abstracted), and no, they cannot/will not have more than 11

here's the link:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49145
 
Aug 18, 2001
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Originally posted by pavlovs_dog
There is already an official(ish) thread dealing with cultures, and just so you know the cultural distinctions will not be that picky... We're talking about a total of 11 cultures (which are of course highly generalized and abstracted), and no, they cannot/will not have more than 11

That's not what I am talking about - there are far deeper and divisive issues in Europe (especially medieval Europe) than mere «cultural» differences...

My point is, the european populations have been divided for millennia by many different points, and «culture» or «ethniticy» were often the least of them.

Look at medieval Scotland - it is a country permanently divided between clans, who based themseves around particular regions and have private hatreds/feuds between themselves - any ruler MUST have the particular dissentions between the particular clans in mind or else face the risk of a massive rebellion - and «cultural», «religious» or «ethnic» differences were simply not an issue here.

Or my country: our two main cities (Lisboa and Oporto) never had ruling lords other than the king, and yet always had an immense rivalry between each other that often led to war between them... (the last siege of Oporto was in 1927... and their motto is still «to see Lisbon ablaze»)

In other words, a medieval game that doesn't take into account the traditional european regionalism is like a world country simulator set in the XXth century that doesn't take ideology into consideration.

Regards,
Keoland
 

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General
Apr 5, 2001
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I agree with keoland. I'd much prefer six generations, two centuries of regionalism to any "culture" concept.

But, you can always "show the sword" and decimate the natives of a newly conquered province and resettle it with your mown people. That should spped up absorption to 60 years, two generations, only
 
Aug 18, 2001
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Originally posted by Hardu
But, you can always "show the sword" and decimate the natives of a newly conquered province and resettle it with your mown people. That should spped up absorption to 60 years, two generations, only

Mmm... unless you're talking about pagans [like Charlemagne did with the Saxons] or muslims [like we did in the Peninsula], I seriously doubt that you could get away with doing that in christian Europe on any significant scale while avoiding near-instant Papal excommunication... :p

Besides, I don't thing regionalism should ever go away - we are still waiting for it to vanish in most european countries, and that for centuries and centuries! (Spain, Germany, Italy...) Some of them date straight from the Middle Ages!

Heck, in my country - which is portrayed as monolythical in all games, EU2 included - we are crammed with separatist regional movements: we have Madeira separatists, Azores sparatists, Minhoto separatists, Algarve separatists, Oporto separatists... even some people in Lisbon say that we should just let the rest of the country go its own way just so they'd stop bugging us!

(Fact is, just about every region believes itself to have a «unique identity» that separates it from the rest of the country...)

Regards,
Keoland
 
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Havard

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Jun 28, 2001
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Originally posted by Keoland


Mmm... unless you're talking about pagans [like Charlemagne did with the Saxons] or muslims [like we did in the Peninsula], I seriously doubt that you could get away with doing that in christian Europe on any significant scale while avoiding near-instant Papal excommunication... :p
Just get them branded as heretics, then you can do it with Papal approval :D
 

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Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
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This was what I was trying to say in the "Culture name" thread - among CHristian Europeans - where you come from makes a difference. Wish I would have thought of the word regionalism - you put it much better than I did but that is the point I was trying ot make.

Now once you get outside of Christian Europe the differences are more along religious lines (except of course for some areas where Muslim rule of Jews and Orthodox Christians was more lenient than Latin Christian rule of the same areas).

I realize there are only 11 cultures and that culture is a big factor in representing how hard it is to rule a particular area. Since it seems to me that the cultural definitions will for the most part follow regional boundaries (albeit large regions) this is probably a good representation for game purposes.:)
 

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Apr 5, 2001
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Rebels are rebels.
William the Bastard pacified the north of Engand in 1067-1071 by the rather drastioc means of killing odd a sizeable fraction of the population in retaliation for rebellion.
That was an extreme case that was not copied on the Continent (no ruler had the necessary power).

Treating your "own" people, ie your native subjects in such a manner was counter-productive. One of the reasons for the German secular princes' opposition to the Emperor Henry IV in 1067 was the general feeling that the punishment meeted out the Saxon commoners after their rebellion in 1066 was too drastic. Henry behaved like a tyrant - which meant he had voided his coronation oaths and thus his mandate to rule.