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Martinian

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First of all, I would like to give a big THANK YOU to all the paradox members and especially the Crusader Kings 3 devs. You are really making the game of my dreams and I am extremely happy for that.

There is one little thing, that I haven't seen discussed or pinpointed and that kept me thinking about. That being a Knight's entourage and how it is used during wars and specifically during civil wars as seen in the second dev stream.

From what we have been told, knights are now those powerfull entities, that decide the outcome of battles. Bring forth more knights and you have the quality advantage over your opponent. Knights in shining armour are those paragons of glory, that slay tens of men in single battle. And I very much like this approach, as it is very role play friendly and thus immersive.


With that off the table, let us do some math. We all enjoyed how, oblivous and naive, the devs entered a state of civil war standing alone against the might of Vitale, deposed child king.
I have counted 1 duke and 6 counts on the side of rebels and 6 counts remaining loyal. So simply put it, half of the country rebeled.

01 County count.png


Alfonso's troops were recovering from the war with Navarre and many of his vassals didn't like him, so that would explain why the rebel's army was twice as big as royal army.

The first battle ensued in Miranda de Ebro, where loyal forces engaded with the host of Amaya. Alfonso had large numerical advantage so this battle was onesided plain and simple. Both sides had 5 knights however even though one was a royal army and second was a single county army.

02 Mirinda.png


That trend repeated during a battle of Cuellar, when royal forces engaged larger rebel force contained of several counties. This time around rebels crushed loyalist. Royal army had around 500 more troops however rebelious army had 19 knights from three counties and their army quality was 2 ranks higher (5 against 3). Not even Navarran allies with their late addition of 9 other knights and 1000 troops were able to turn the battle around.

03 Cellar.png


So during a civil strife, this seems to put a defender/loyalist into disadvantage, as they can use only their personal knight's entourage, but each of their rebelious vassals brings their own entourage seperately into war. It is fully possible, that rebels under Vitale had around 50 knights fielded against 5 of those of Alfonso at the time. So it is either serious quality disadvantage for the defender's armies or the knights won't be that overpowered. That could make defending monarch solely dependent on outside allies or mercenaries. Or am I wrong? Was there something devs missed?

Anyway, I don't want to sound negative, rather assertively constructive. This game is shaping up to be something really special. I have preordered royal edition and I am nervously awaiting September 1 so I can finally delve myself into the intrigue of medieval noble court.

I will see you in the Holy Land, brothers
Yours faithfully
Martinian
 
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That is an interesting point. Might it simply be the devs didn’t nvest heavily enough in troop quality?
 
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Why does that Spanish county (I can't see which it is) have the coat of arms of Auvergne?
 
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Razmorg

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9D9CQl3.jpg


So obviously I can't really judge it yet. It does seem like civil war will be slightly tougher due to individual counts bringing their own knights and while there's ways to raise your knight cap I doubt you can do it easily at the start.

BUT there's tons of other factors going on besides knights.

  • Defenders advantage. They smaller hostile army is defending a river crossing.
  • Hostile army has liege with the army bonus and other stuff like "Never Back Down"
  • The players numerical advantage is mostly in levies.
  • The hostile army rolled better through most of the fight (check the blue diamonds)
 
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This seems like a minor thing to me, because if the number of knights are too high for low tier vassals (or too low for high tier), then it requires just a number tuning. Besides they have said that you can focus on getting more knights and you get them based on renown (if I remember correctly).
 
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Civil wars having some teeth is probably a good thing. For the last few years civil wars in CK2 were largely just an annoyance and even AI monarchs tended to crush rebellions most of the time.

I also like the idea that a knight focused "tall" playstyle might be a thing and that there will be advantages to leading an alliance of dynastic kingdoms vs being the emperor of the world.
 
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Martinian

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9D9CQl3.jpg


So obviously I can't really judge it yet. It does seem like civil war will be slightly tougher due to individual counts bringing their own knights and while there's ways to raise your knight cap I doubt you can do it easily at the start.

BUT there's tons of other factors going on besides knights.

  • Defenders advantage. They smaller hostile army is defending a river crossing.
  • Hostile army has liege with the army bonus and other stuff like "Never Back Down"
  • The players numerical advantage is mostly in levies.
  • The hostile army rolled better through most of the fight (check the blue diamonds)

That is some great analysis. Yes, there will be more to combat mechanics then it seems to be in a first glance. I hope the rolls are not completely random and are affected by general's martial skill.

And nice Glitterhoof easter egg xd.

Civil wars having some teeth is probably a good thing. For the last few years civil wars in CK2 were largely just an annoyance and even AI monarchs tended to crush rebellions most of the time.

I also like the idea that a knight focused "tall" playstyle might be a thing and that there will be advantages to leading an alliance of dynastic kingdoms vs being the emperor of the world.

The idea of tall empire based more on elite knightlyhood then on expansion could bring a whole different playstyle to classical feudual playthrough. I like it.
 
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If the number of war participants is more important it also means that allies have more value. That you could choose allies based in their knights. And that preemptively assassinating, capturing or hiring your vassal's high prowess courtiers is another method to secure your rule.
 
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@Martinian You still get more knights from rank, so you would still want to be an emperor. But you could still just have one modestly sized empire vs trying to catch them all, so to speak.
 
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That is some great analysis. Yes, there will be more to combat mechanics then it seems to be in a first glance. I hope the rolls are not completely random and are affected by general's martial skill.

And nice Glitterhoof easter egg xd.
If the number of war participants is more important it also means that allies have more value. That you could choose allies based in their knights. And that preemptively assassinating, capturing or hiring your vassal's high prowess courtiers is another method to secure your rule.

Good point! Also worth noting we have no idea how powerful their knights were vs the devs army. I remember them saying that knights with less than 10 prowess were pretty bad.
 
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If I recall correctly, the devs went to their knights screen after that battle (to manually assign/change some knights?) and they had 8 knights by that point. It's possible that when the rebellion broke out, some of their knights were rebelling vassals/subjects of rebelling vassals, meaning they needed to select replacement knights/wait for them to be selected automatically.

Not that that changes your overall point, but the numbers may not be quite as bad as it first looks.

I hope the rolls are not completely random and are affected by general's martial skill.

Given that martial skill is already factored into the "advantage" balance, I doubt it would impact dice rolls as well. The likely purpose of the dice rolls is to introduce the random element that wouldn't exist if it were just a sum of martial stat and other factors.
 
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..... It's possible that when the rebellion broke out, some of their knights were rebelling vassals/subjects of rebelling vassals, meaning they needed to select replacement knights/wait for them to be selected automatically.

Exactly this happened.

Knights used in the war with Navara

Screenshot from 2020-08-16 19-40-17.png


Knights used in the civil war:

Screenshot from 2020-08-16 19-40-42.png


I am beginning to like the knight feature more and more. Its way more personal.
Murder their best knights, hooks and what not. Care for your knights, pick the best etc.
 
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Middle left picture, the face of enemy general from Razmorg's post xd.

Exactly this happened.

Knights used in the war with Navara

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Knights used in the civil war:

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I am beginning to like the knight feature more and more. Its way more personal.
Murder their best knights, hooks and what not. Care for your knights, pick the best etc.

Yes, many of knights used in Navarran war are the rebelious counts themselves as it seems.

It seams that to maximise number of knights you need very decentralised realm with a lot of vassals that likes you...

Or rather centralized realm, so when they break in rebelion, they don't have knightly advantage. You have a pool limited to only few in number. I think the devs had 8 knights in the stream at most. If you group your vassals into duchies, direct participants of future rebelion will have less number of elite fighters to field.
 
  • 1Haha
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