Beta Patch - IBERIA

[unmerged(6777)]

March 21 beta patch - IBERIA

Yet another series of changes were made to the Iberian neck of the woods. This thread is for relating your observations as to what you're seeing in your games. I would appreciate it if you could tell me what difficulty and aggressiveness settings you are playing at when reporting (since this has an impact on the likely results).

 

[unmerged(40814)]

On normal/normal, 1066, playing as Castille:

So far it seems that the only reason there are still christians in Iberia is because so far Sevilla hasnt decided to annihilate me like they've done with everything else in the southern half.

The game started easily enough as I conquered Toledo and a few other neighboring provinces right away, but since then Sevilla went on a rampage and I'm cowering in fear at the moment they decide they're done finishing off the Toledo Sheikdom (who relocated to Barcelona) and looking my way.

Of course, since I also just got finished with a rather nasty attack from England and France I'm severely depleted at this point. One of my vassals revolted and defected to England and before I realized it, I declared war to try and 'convince' them to stop revolting..oops

This is all by the year 1085..I'm not expecting to survive a Sevillian attack, but we'll see. Maybe they'll ignore me long enough to rebuild so I can try and pluck off a few provinces at a time, but I dont think thats likely.

*EDIT*
NOTE: This was with the old intrigue file. I'll restart the game and try again, see what happens.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

This may have to do with the error in the intrigue events that might have cause unjustified revolts in a number of nations.

What difficulty and aggressiveness settings are you using? My balancing has all been based on normal/normal and it's likely that on higher aggressiveness settings the Moslems will have a greater edge against Iberian Catholics.

Edit: sorry...I missed your post's "normal/normal" preface....

Hmmm...odd. Probably related to the unintended intrigue revolts. I'll run a few more hands-off tests to see if I can reproduce that.

 

[november]

It’s about 1130 in my new patch game and the Christians have held their own, even expanded a bit.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Mine was on normal/normal until it crashed in 1085

Nothern iberia has become a patchwork of mostly Castile, intermixed with multple emirs and a couple shakes and the odd christian realm. Castile seems able to hold their own against the northern neigbors, but i fear it won't survive if it continues to war with an almost consolidated Sevilla to the south.

 

[von Murrin]

On my second game, both normal/normal. Like Jinnai, Castile seems to be the only one capable of holding their own to any degree. Catholic Spain gets gradually eaten away within the first 40 years unless I directly intervene.

 

[unmerged(26464)]

I've played a few games in both 1066 and 1185. Aragon always gets conquered and Portugal never fares well. Castille seems to hold its own but only if it absorbs Leon. In the 1185 scenario the large grey empire(can't remember name) can always bring in large armies against the north and crush the Kingdoms unless the Germans or the Scandinavians or the English get involved(France always seems uninterested.

 

[unmerged(514)]

Played 5 games observing Iberia closely (1066). Note I was not influencing the situation in any way.

My general observations:


1st Game

- Due to a reckless Castille it was game over for the christian kingdoms in Iberia in 13 years (!!!). Nobody else got involved outside Iberia.


2nd Game

- Sevilla consolidated its position among the muslim kingdoms. At one point, due to internal wars betweeen the muslims, it seemed to me the Christians could get the upper hand if they attacked together. Unfortunately that time passed and later (1105) the combined force of the muslims was brought together against the christians. The english got involved and by 1129 only a weak Castille remained without any realistic hope of surviving.


3rd Game

- By 1088 the thing was decided again with a muslim hegemony in Iberia. This time the muslim armies picked the christians one by one and in 20 years it was clear, even if Leon and Castille were still struggling it would not last long. Nobody else cared about Iberia.


4th Game

- This time things went the other way. Basically, England and Germany got involved early, stopping the first wave of muslims and the christians had gained large chunks of territory by 1140. However I would not consider it decided because what remained from the muslims was consolidated in one kingdom (forgot to anotate who) and they were defending themselves pretty well, inflicting heavy casualties on the christians. Nevertheless, it was a BIG change from the other scenarios.


5th Game

- English got involved and really helped. By 1100 there was a stalemate with 2 provinces gained for the Muslims (Soria and Lleida) and 3 gained for the Christians (Lisbon, Evora and Plasencia). The English retreated from Iberia by then and things started to decline again. By 1143 Braganza were no more, Leon was seriously crippled and the muslims controlled about 2/3 of Iberia, including all the south (up to Empuries). Only Castille was surviving even if the prospects were not at all brilliant for them.



On a last note, in some of the games I saw external muslim kingdoms getting involved too. In one game I found it amusing how the Count of Coimbra kept declaring war against some kingdom in morocco (they made peace twice but the guy declared war a third time... and then it was game over for him).

Final, final note (that justified the edit, after all )... The info about my patch reads March 17 and not March 21.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well Northern Africa should be declaring war on southern Iberia. Probably they need claims on the southern powers.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Final, final note (that justified the edit, after all )... The info about my patch reads March 17 and not March 21.

Thanks for the 5 tests. Good to get a nice concise synopsis like that. The only thing you omitted to mention was what game settings you were using. Was it on normal/normal?

As to the date that shows in the load screen, Johan sets that when he makes the exe so March 17 is correct. We did some preliminary testing with his exe for a few days and made a few more event tweaks before releasing it to the public beta forum.

 

[unmerged(514)]

Thanks for the 5 tests. Good to get a nice concise synopsis like that. The only thing you omitted to mention was what game settings you were using. Was it on normal/normal?

As to the date that shows in the load screen, Johan sets that when he makes the exe so March 17 is correct. We did some preliminary testing with his exe for a few days and made a few more event tweaks before releasing it to the public beta forum.

I run all my games in normal/normal.

Made a 6th test already. As it seems to be helpful, here goes the synopsis :


- Braganza fell early (just Porto remaining) after being attacked and fighting alone the muslims. Castille (the liege) was involved in a nasty fight around Toledo that ended in an honorable draw, I guess. I think the muslims lost more men but Castille just din't have the power to go on offensive. England kept quiet... on the other hand, the Germans helped Castille but retreated due to internal wars, I think. By 1114 another bloody war errupted again with no clear victor, even if the provinces of Braganza and Evora were taken from the moors (Leon got them). The question is the fact both sides got pretty mauled and din't have the power to go on offensive anymore. What could have tipped the scale was external intervention but that didn't happen in a large scale (there was some french involved but sent only about 300 men lost in a stupid siege - nevertheless, 1st time I see a French army in Iberia).
By 1134, for the third time a major war errupted in Iberia AGAIN with no clear victor. This time the English got involved but lost their main army in another stupid siege, this time taking Lisbon (and yes, they DID take it but lost more than 1000 men doing so). Leon got some early successes but again got too worried about sieges and the net result was not favourable. In the end, Lisbon was retaken by the muslims and in a decisive move by 1139, 3 northern African Muslims declared war and with another 3000 muslims in the peninsula things start to go down for the christians.
To sum it up, in this game we had 3 stalemates only broken after the African Muslims got involved. I ended the game in 1143, and now I think it was too early to declare game over for the Iberian christians, but the sitution was grim, for sure.

 

[unmerged(40814)]

Another normal/normal 1066 Castille game.

This one started out a bit better, with Sevilla not initially expanding as much. In fact, they even offered an alliance, which I accepted. They declared war on Cordoba, and I jumped in and grabbed the province as well as the two directly east of it. At this point I decided to consolidate my northern holdings and bring Leon into the Castillian way of life.

Of course the minor christian states had been wiped out, but with the Sevillan alliance I was letting my armies build up so I could take out Toledo and eventually work my way down to my southern provinces.

Well, around 1086, Sevilla DOW's me, even though the alliance was still in effect (not entirely unexpected). Immediately they are joined by Grenada, Toledo, Bejadoz, Malacca (that not right, but I cant remember the exact name) and Tangiers!!!

Ok, I'm in trouble at this point, as Sevilla wipes through my southern holdings in no time at all.

To make matters worse, my king dies during the siege of Cordoba, and his son takes over. His son had better overall stats, but little to no piety or prestige...uh oh..

As soon as the southern holdings fell the game was basically over. The loss of the southern areas gave my newly crowned liege a negative piety value and I couldnt sue for peace. Not that they would have accepted anyway, but I didnt even have the option to try and buy them off.

My forces did fight valiantly, and were almost able to hold of Grenada's advances into my realm only losing one more core province, but then Sevilla swept through with 3 different armies numbering anywhere between 1000 to 3000 men a piece!

I was actually able to defeat the first two, but by the time the third army of 1200 swept in, my total manpower was down to 1000, and most of my regiments had been utterly destroyed by the first two armies and were unable to deploy yet.

By 1090, I lost all my provinces and the game. No other europeans even glanced down in my direction.

Despite the relatively brutal beating I recieved, I dont think it's impossible to win in this situation. I do believe that the northen Iberian provinces should be given a slight increase in value, to compensate for the Muslim flood of bodies they will eventually have to deal with. Not much, as little as .25 -.50 base income in 3 or 4 provinces may be enough for them to gather the manpower to hold off the mini-hordes. The tech difference didnt seem to come into play that often as I was usually soundly beating the smaller armies (the 17 value on the marshal helps here). The biggest problem was that when all the emirates DOW'd like that, I was just screwed. And then to have my liege die almost immediately after was simply disatrous. Fun game, but I'm gonna have to play a Croatian game after that just to raise my self esteem a bit :rofl:

 

[unmerged(6777)]

March 24th patch now available. Any posts in this thread after this one should now refer to the new patch. If you make a comment about an old patch, please specifically say so (else I'll think your comments are about the latest one).

Thanks.

C.

 

[Hogar]

Just to confirm I've seen new break up events workin just fine in the case of Seville in my latest game. Nice work...

 

[Grell74]

-Good tech changes to the setup for 1066.
The Almoravids (Muarits) need claims on North Africa and Muslim Iberia, Historically the Chrisitans had the upper hand in Iberia until the Almos came in wiped out all the Iberia Muslims and gave the Chrisitans a pretty nasty fright, as is this can almost never happen (and a bit more inter Muslim fighting in the area wont hurt).
-Why does Sancho King of Aragon have the Bastard stat? Also might be worth giving him claims on Zaragossa, or inheritence claims on Catalonia as his 1 province setup makes it very difficult for the AI to expand.
-The French never really get involved, giving claims to some of the Aquitaine/Gascon counts might help "Gascony was originally founded by the Basques, and is actually named after them, from Vascones. The Duchy was thus Vasconia, from which we get Gascogne in French. The names of the Dukes of Gascony thus are much like the names with patronymics of the early Basque Kings of Navarre, e.g. "Sancho Garcés" and "García Sánchez" occur in both places. When the male line of the Dukes ended in 1032, claims by marriage could have been made by Barcelona and Aquitaine, but Sancho III of Navarre made good on acquiring the Duchy. After his death in 1035 Navarre lost control, but I am unaware of what was going on until the claim of Aquitaine was made good in 1052".
-Now that the Christians have a bit of breathing space with the Muslims I think Galica should be remade to a Kingdom (as it was historicaaly and pre BETA). Also each of the brothers should be given claims on the Kings of Leon, Castille and Galica. Rather than weakening Chrisitan Spain I think this will more likley lead to a unified spain in 10 years (at least that was my experience when I modded it a few BETAs ago). Give Garcia poor stats, health and fertility, Sancho low fertility and Alfonso high intrigue. If they havent sorted it by war let nature

 

[unmerged(6777)]

* * * APRIL 8th PATCH NOW AVAILABLE * * *​

This week's patch includes the re-emergence of Spanish Galicia as a kingdom in its own right (as it was in all of the official patches). It was turned into a duchy earlier in beta to help bolster the strength of Iberian Catholics but since we have probably over-achieved in that area, it seems safe to try turning it back into a kingdom again to see how things play out now.

In the April 1st patch *all* Iberian Catholic provinces were given leather armour. This week's patch removes that advance from those provinces unless they are a kingdom or duchy demesne capital.

In the April 1 patch a "reconquista period" was created that very heavily biased new crusades to be called to Iberian targets in the 1150-1200 date range. In this week's patch I've reduced the degree of weighting somewhat, but have extended the date range from 1150-1250.

I'd like to get some feedback on how all of the above is playing out.

If you're providing feedback please ensure that you are playing with the latest patch and have been doing so since the start of your game (a game started under April 1 and then continued under April 8 will almost certainly produce drastically different results and your feedback might be misleading).

Thanks

 

[Damocles]

Well. I think the initial setup in 1066 is very misleading as to the actual, historical accuracy of the period.

In the current setup, we have the kingdoms either wrangling among themselves or being annihilated. Whereas IRL, they were united under Castille within about ten years and then went on to reclaim 3/4th of the Iberian Peninsula in a startling amount of time as far as Valencia (El Cid, etc). Then the Berbers came across the Gibraltar strait and there was another breakup of the kingdoms. But after the 12th century, the muslims were reduced to the vicinity of Granada and stayed there as a vassal state, paying enormous sums of money to Castille and Aragon became more interested in expanding Eastwards, taking over Sardinia, Sicily and even making an attempt on the Byzantine throne.

 

[Mad King James]

Technically speaking Garcia never actually ruled Galicia, so it's a bit of a stretch making him fully king of Galicia. If anything, Galicia should be demesne of Castille and Garcia virtually Sancho's prisoner (courtier?)

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Well yeah...technically it's true. I guess the issue during the initial setup of the 1066 scenario was that it hadn't technically been controlled by Sancho at that point either - and wouldn't be until a couple years later when he had finish his war with his other brother - so there were really three proto-kingdoms that were more of a temporary blip in the timeline of Castile. Just our luck that the start of the scenario happens to fall right in the thick of things.

Ultimately we will go with game balance. If the latest change (back to treating Galicia as a kingdom) doesn't produce desirable results then we'll switch it back to being a duchy within Castile. Another possible scenario would be to give Garcia the "illness" trait at the beginning of the game which - combined with his crap health stat to begin with - makes it extremely likely that Sancho would gain the lands shortly thereafter.

 

[Grell74]

I think currently Iberia works quite well. Maybe Braganza should be a vassal of Castile rather than Galica (or even independent?).

Historically the Catholics kicked the arse of the Iberian Muslims in the 1002-1086 period "During this period of decline most of the Moslem dynasties including the Abbasids of Seville became triutary to the agressive successors of Sancho 'the Great'. Ferdinand I 'the Great' won numerous victories over the Moslems, forcing the Emirs of Sarragosa, Toledo and Seville to become tributaries. In 1085 the Emir of Seville was so alarmed by the loss of Toledo to Castile that he called for assistance from the Almoravids of Morrocco". It was Yusuf ibn Tashfin (al Murabits in 1066 Scenario) that brought the Moors into Spain and massively shifted the power balance. By 1091 they had conquered ALL of Muslim Spain except Zaragossa. This is very unlikley to happen as the Al Murabits are pussies in the 1066 setup. I think they should be given claims over the rest of North West Africa and more imprtantly Muslim Spain. They should also be beefed up a fair bit with a good marshall an Martial skill of Yusuf (not quite as good as Sancho + El Cid, but not too far off). Castile was defeated by them and Alfonso had to bring back El Cid from exile to try to beat them. Maybe the could even have some special troop events? Although I just took a look at the new April 8th Muslim Troop events in the Intrigue_Events file, very nice.