Beta Patch - CRUSADES

unmerged(6777) · Mar 25, 2005

March 24th patch now available. Any posts in this thread after this one should now refer to the new patch. If you make a comment about an old patch, please specifically say so (else I'll think your comments are about the latest one).

Thanks.

C.

unmerged(6777) · Mar 25, 2005

Spruce said:
MrT,

what about the "surroundings", does the crusading AI attacks the entire Muslim tier controlling the target. Or does the AI just dow's all provinces in the "surroundings".

I've observed 2 crusades that wheren't called off and surroundings did get captured (but the AI was at peace with all the surroundings after the main target had fallen)

Crusading AI is not explicitly aware of the benefits of capturing the surrounding provinces, nor will it go out of its way to DOW the owner of one if it isn't already. That's not to say tha the AI ignores them, but it isn't really aware of why it should want them. I'm not sure if trying to correct for this might not actually end up confusing it rather than improving it.

Grell74 · Mar 26, 2005

March 24th Beta

Crusade called to Jersualem in 1075. Because of the new Muslim break-up events Jerusalem was a one province sheikdom with no vassals or allies.

In 1075 Poland and some of his vassals declare war, several months later so do Scotland and Venice. They both march troops there and lay seige half way through although the would easily have taken Jeruslem they both accept peace for 2 or 3 gold!!! Nice work fellas. :rofl: Croatia ans their vassals declare war in 1078, the seige and take the place in a few months. Crusade over a few months later.

Second crusade called to Valencia 1081.

What causes some AI kings to go on Crusade and not others? The Veince leader was actually excommunicated and he went. The king of Aragon had the Crusader trait but he did bugger all, nor did England, Germany or France (the Historical Crusade leaders). Shouldnt the crusader trait be linked to actually fighting the Muslims or going on Crusade (King of Aragon shouldnt have got it).

We need some more crusade flavour events, like the "Peoples Crusade" event = famine/ poverty in lands/ lower peasant power, etc.

Historically the first crusade was called because (among other things of course) the Seljuks were so powerful and by 1071 had taken over Jeruslem and the surrounding areas, they were far more harsh to Christian pilgrims than the Fatimids were, also the Byz emperor was fearful of the Seljuks and wanted the Christians to fight them. The Seljuks are a joke currently, nothing short of a miracle would see them take Jersualem ans the area they historically held by 1071. I think they need horse archer troops and troop events like the horde (even a similar demense bonus would be good IMO).

Historically the First crusade wasnt called until 1095. I realise these are BETAs and for testing purposes it is useful to have these earlier but I really think that they should be brought forward to a later date in the game as they are firing too early. Also there should be more time in between crusades. AVG 2-10 years (Historically 1st Crusade Jerus 1096-1099, 2nd Crusade Jerus 1147-1149, 3rd Jerus Crusade 1189-1192, 4th Crusade Cairo (ultimate Goal Jerus 1202-1204, 5th Crusade Egypt again 1218-1221, 6th 1228-1229, 7th 1229-1247, 8th 1248-1254. Of course there were other smaller crusades called by the Pope such as Iberian and Baltic and Albeginsen ones (have thes been coded I would like to see one for Baltics/Scandinavia and one against Heretics. But Jerusalem should defintly be the main focus.

unmerged(2456) · Mar 26, 2005

Grell74 said:
In 1075 Poland and some of his vassals declare war, several months later so do Scotland and Venice. They both march troops there and lay seige half way through although the would easily have taken Jeruslem they both accept peace for 2 or 3 gold!!! Nice work fellas. :rofl: Croatia ans their vassals declare war in 1078, the seige and take the place in a few months. Crusade over a few months later.

It seems my worst fears for what the new breakup muslim events would do has come to pass with the newest beta, ie that there would be many 1 province minors who don't have any vassals and become easy pickings, like handing out free prestige, piety and land.

LordLeto · Mar 26, 2005

It should be simple enough to give the Fatimid Sultan Jerusalem(and maybe surroundings), and reduce his holdings in Egypt to compensate. Maybe over compensate a bit to prevent that break-up.

Tamas · Mar 26, 2005

LordLeto said:
It should be simple enough to give the Fatimid Sultan Jerusalem(and maybe surroundings), and reduce his holdings in Egypt to compensate. Maybe over compensate a bit to prevent that break-up.

I like this idea.

On a more general note, I think we (and especially MrT and the other scripters who have been doing an outstanding job) should not loose focus while trying to come up with historical results.
What -imho- important is a reasonable gameworld which gives framework for what is the greatest thing about CK: the extreme randomness, and the huge number of possible outcomes.

Like, a muslim England and Bohemia is not good, because it was absolutely impossible to happen, not highly unlikely. Muslims not posing any threat to Byzantium at all is not good, because it spoils some of the fun. Seljuks not caring about Jerusalem: that's something I can live with, because gameplay-wise it doesn't really matter, and it's ain't that big of a historical nonsense.

Captain Frakas · Mar 26, 2005

MrT said:
Traditional kingdoms that were historically active in the crusades are now more likely to be active in them in the game

Why not change :

Code:

modifier = {
			condition = { type = kingdom }
			factor = 0.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = county }
			factor = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = target value = 774 }
				condition = { type = target value = 764 }
				condition = { type = target value = 802 }
				condition = { type = target value = 817 }
			}
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = title value = ENGL }
				condition = { type = title value = FRAN }
				condition = { type = title value = GERM }
			}
			factor = 0.5
		}

By

Code:

		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = year value = 1101 }
				condition = { type = kingdom }
			}
			factor = 0.2
		}

		modifier = {
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = not value = { type =  year value = 1101 }}
				condition = { type = duchy }
			}
			factor = 0.2
		}

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = county }
			factor = 10
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type =  year value = 1101 }}
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = target value = 774 }
				condition = { type = target value = 764 }
				condition = { type = target value = 802 }
			}
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = title value = LOLO } #Basse Lorraine
				condition = { type = title value = APUL } #Duché de Naples
				condition = { type = title value = TOUL } #Toulouse
				condition = { type = title value = FLAN } #Flandres
				condition = { type = title value = NORM } #Normandie
				condition = { type = title value = CHAM } #Champagne
			}
			factor = 0.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = year value = 1101 }
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = target value = 774 }
				condition = { type = target value = 764 }
				condition = { type = target value = 802 }
			}
			condition = {
				type = or
				condition = { type = title value = ENGL }
				condition = { type = title value = FRAN }
				condition = { type = title value = GERM }
			}
			factor = 0.5
		}

unmerged(12299) · Mar 26, 2005

I like the new breakup events and an event for the nonmlitary crusades, is there a way to code a Jihad for the Moslem nations for later in the game? Make it harder for the Christians the later into the game you get because right now the Moslems are pushovers. Early on this is ok but later the Moslems should get more organized and take it to the Christians.

Also MrT can you add some events that destabilize the Christians in the Holy Land. There was a lot of infighting amongst the Christians there and this led to serious problems and it was a major factor in their downfall. Also, I think I may have mentioned this but could you code an event that will form the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Right now, everyone and their Uncle has a piece of it so I cant form it without going to war with Christendom. Maybe you could make it so that the controller with the most land gets to pick the King of Jerusalem or the Pope does.

Can the Seljuk Turks be made to be a little more belligerent to Byzantium. Im finding that in all games the Turks and Byzers do nothing to each other and this seems to keep Byzantium a power till the end of the game.

Captain Frakas · Mar 26, 2005

freetup said:
I like the new breakup events and an event for the nonmlitary crusades, is there a way to code a Jihad for the Moslem nations for later in the game?

I've make this counter-crusade event :

Code:

#####################################
# Muslim rulers call to Djihad #
#####################################

character_event = { 
	id = 23104
	picture = "event_crusades"

	trigger = {
		condition = { type = ai }
		condition = { type = is_independent }
		condition = { type = crusade }
		condition = { type = not value = { type = atwar } }
		condition = { type = religion value = muslim }
		condition = { type = not value = { type = trait value = heretic } }
		condition = {
			type = or
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = target value = 774 }
				condition = { type = province 
					province = 774
					condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler_religion value = muslim }}
				}
				condition = { type = region value = Asia_Minor }
			}
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = target value = 764 }
				condition = { type = province 
					province = 764
					condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler_religion value = muslim }}
				}
				condition = { type = region value = Asia_Minor }
			}
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = target value = 802 }
				condition = { type = province 
					province = 802
					condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler_religion value = muslim }}
				}
				condition = { type = region value = North_Africa }
			}

			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = target value = 496 }
				condition = { type = province 
					province = 496
					condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler_religion value = muslim }}
				}
				condition = { type = region value = Balkan }
			}
			condition = {
				type = and
				condition = { type = target value = 333 }
				condition = { type = province 
					province = 333
					condition = { type = not value = { type = ruler_religion value = muslim }}
				}
				condition = { type = region value = Italy }
			}
		}
	}

	mean_time_to_happen = {
		months = 360

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = kingdom }
			factor = 0.2
		}

		modifier = {
			condition = { type = county }
			factor = 5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = age value = 16 } }
			factor = 3
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = age value = 26 } }
			condition = { type = age value = 16 }
			factor = 0.75
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = age value = 40 }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = age value = 50 }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = age value = 60 }
			factor = 1.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = martial value = 4 } }
			factor = 1.15
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = martial value = 9 }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = martial value = 12 }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = clubfooted }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = coward }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = cruel }
			factor = 0.85
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = clubfooted }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = crusader }
			factor = 0.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = energetic }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = hunchback }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = illness }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = lazy }
			factor = 1.15
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = reckless }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = sceptical }
			factor = 2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = valorous }
			factor = 0.75
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = war_invalid }
			factor = 1.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = zealous }
			factor = 0.75
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = brilliant_strategist }
			factor = 0.75
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = knowledged_tactician }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = misguided_warrior }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = tough_soldier }
			factor = 0.85
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = trait value = martial_cleric }
			factor = 0.8
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 1.00 }}
			factor = 0.95
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.8 } }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.5 } }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.25 } }
			factor = 0.85
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.01 } }
			factor = 0.5
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 100 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 250 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 500 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 1000 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = piety value = 100 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = piety value = 250 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = piety value = 500 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = piety value = 1000 }
			factor = 0.9
		}
	}

	action_a = { #I will summon my levies and follow the Djihad!
		ai_chance = 75
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 250 }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 500 }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = gold value = 1000 }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 1.00 } }
			factor = 1.05
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.8 } }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.5 } }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.25 } }
			factor = 1.1
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = not value = { type = efficiency value = 0.01 } }
			factor = 1.2
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = county }
			factor = 0.33
		}
		modifier = {
			condition = { type = duchy }
			factor = 0.66
		}
		effect = { type = piety value = 25 }
		effect = { type = gold value = 250 } #extra contribution
		effect = { type = add_regiment #extra levy
				strength = {
					archer_cav = 150 
					light_cav = 300 
					archers = 200 
					heavy_inf = 200 
					pikemen = 200 
					militia = 400
				}
		}
		effect = { type = declare_war value = crusade_target_owner }
	}
	action_b = { #I dare not risk it.
		ai_chance = 25
		effect = {
			type = random
			chance = 25
			effect = { type = piety value = -10 }
		}
	}
}

unmerged(16588) · Mar 27, 2005

Hey Guys,

I have an idea that might have been suggested before, but I haven't read all of the discussions in the public beta forum since I've only this week acquired unlimited free time. And, I confess, I am too lazy to do so. But heer goes:

In order to make the muslims less of bunch of nancy pushovers, why not script some events to give them a bunch of troops (we're talking a ludicrous amount, perhaps) upon the declaration of a crusade. Of course, this would apply only to the muslim states directly involved in the crusade (or say X amount of bonus anti-crusaders in each province in the region the crusade target is in), and I think it would be contingent upon the reworking of the military access system so that they wouldn't use their massive amount of free cannon fodder to jihad their way across europe. And, once the crusade ends for one reason or another, some events would fire to release these "volunteers" and thus disband the regiments.

Or perhaps something could be coded to give the muslim religion (or arab culture, but that's a bit risky) more troops per level of province wealth?

Tamas · Mar 27, 2005

Why not approach the problem of Muslims by completely (and I do mean completely) redrawing their map? I mean, before the breakup events, they were too strong. Now they are too weak. The Fatimids should be a bunch of 3-4 province counts banded together. They could break vassalship and fight each other (in fact, I think 3-4 provinces independent "states" would be best), but the breakup events would be directed toward maintaining these 3-4 provinces guys.

unmerged(6777) · Mar 28, 2005

I expected that the new events to cause moslem nations to implode will need tweaking and balancing. Before we do [a]anything[/i] rash (redrawing maps, giving free troops, etc.) I would like to spend a couple patches simply working with the base mtth and modifiers for these new events. The goal was to break up the moselm nations once they got excessively large (which now seems to be happening) so now I need to make some tweaks to the degree to which they break up. The more feedback I get as to what's happening in your games, the more rapidly and accurately I should be able to guage what needs to be adjusted and make the tweaks.

Please keep the feedback coming. I am confident that I can get these balanced and working properly. I just need the data to do it (and a little patience until I've got it right).

Hogar · Mar 28, 2005

I don't think these Muslims are pushover because of the new fragmentation events at all. It seems the number of Christian armies pouring into their lands just overwhelms them. I just saw Fatamids beaten by Scandinavians and Spanish kingdoms. Fragmentation evens did not happen... just the numbers and nothing else.

Is it possible to code the succession to happen on the more geographical lines? Kinda strange to see leopards skin when kingdom falls apart.

unmerged(16588) · Mar 28, 2005

Feedback:

Well, I have played a couple games, although most crash by the esarly/mid 1100s; however, I think the iberian setup works now that the christians actually crusade.

But I agree, the middle east ALWAYS implodes immediately into a tonne of 1-province irritants the way things are.

Third Angel · Mar 29, 2005

March 24th beta/1066/Very Hard/Agressive

Jerusalem 1078-1089
Nearly every near-eastern sheikdom was independant so they were not worried. Only Jerusalem, its fatimid liege and allies were DOWed by half the christiandom. Swedes took the target and a few counties around. Germans and Polish got there too late but still being at war with the Fatimids, they began the next crusade early taking Alexandria and several egyptian counties, which was easy with a weak fatimid having almost no vassals.

Palermo 1091-1099
The poor sicilian sheik also had half the christiandom against him. The prize was actually won by a minor french count. Agrigente which belonged to the same sheik was taken by another minor count and that was it, even though the whole southern Italy was held by the Zirids.

Burgos 1101-
Iberian kingdoms were having a bad time. Inter-christians wars were raging and they were slowly pushed back North by the Emirate of Sevilla and the Republic of Cordoba (20 provs.). Navarra and Castilla fell shortly after the crusade was called. Leon and Aragon were only two or three provinces wide by then. The fun part comes when they found themselves at war with respectively German and Scottish lords while nobody cared about Sevilla holding Burgos. Eventually Leon and Aragon were done by the muslims first, but what was that?
Germans and Scots then stopped being interested in Iberia despite the ongoing crusade. England who had settled two fantasy duchies south of Durero before even the first crusade was called didn't seem to care either about the third one, neither did the muslims pay any attention to Essex and Hampshire.

Mike von Bek · Mar 31, 2005

March 24th Beta/1066/Very Hard/Furious

So, its 1075 - the Pope declares a Crusade... but Im a Nubian. An Orthodox Arab Nubian... why are the Crusades affecting me?

unmerged(21937) · Mar 31, 2005

Mike von Bek said:
So, its 1075 - the Pope declares a Crusade... but Im a Nubian. An Orthodox Arab Nubian... why are the Crusades affecting me?

How are they affecting you? Do you get Crusades Expectations (ie, monthly piety loss) or events to call you to Crusade? Or do you just see the banner on top right corner?

If the former, then something is wrong.
If the latter, then it's as it should be and you are not actually affected.

Mike von Bek · Apr 1, 2005

Byakhiam said:
How are they affecting you? Do you get Crusades Expectations (ie, monthly piety loss) or events to call you to Crusade? Or do you just see the banner on top right corner?

If the former, then something is wrong.
If the latter, then it's as it should be and you are not actually affected.

I will have to play a longer game to gauge whether the Crusades Expectation or events are firing. At the moment, its memely the Crusades banner popping up, which rather shocked me.

Ill pay more attention in my next game.

unmerged(6777) · Apr 1, 2005

April 1st patch now posted. Please let us know how the changes we've made are helping (or not helping). Remember to base all comments on the latest patch now!

Grell74 · Apr 3, 2005

Different Way of Handling Crusades?

The game Medieval Total War handled crusades in an interesting way. A nation would declare a crusade and a special army icon would appear on the map, this army can only move towards the crusade target and while attrition would be suffered troops in the provinces it traveled through would also join the crusade. Historically crusades where very multinational affairs, although a leader was usually appointed, ie Godfrey of Bullion Richard the Lionheart.

In CK nations (even allied nations) dont really co-ordinate their attacks. Historically troops from different nations would converge at one are, e.g. Venice and travel en-masse. If something similar to MTW were apoted in CK this could improve the feel of crusades more, which to be honest now can be a bit of a nuisance (piety expectations loss, and the crusade targets are usually lost to some bizarro nation that were not historically involved in Crusades e.g. Croatia.

I havent completely thought about how this could work for CK, any suggestions? What could work is once a crusade has been delcared a special army icon pops up at the capital of the nation decalring the crusade and an event fires inviting other Catholic rulers with high peity to join (they then also decalre war on the target and have an option of sending their demsne troops), so there will be several armies combned under the one Crusade army icon on the map. This has to move in the direction of the target, when it moves through fellow Christian lands the rulers get an even aking if they want to join (only high piety AIs would agree) if it is reduced to less than a certain amount of troops (e.g. 50) the crusade has failed. The leader of the crusade could be determined the same way as seiges. A host of special events could also be tied to this "special" crusade army.

Beta Patch - CRUSADES

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Captain

Pure Evil Genius

Indipidipenditant

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Sergeant

Field Marshal

Eight Cubed Leader

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Liberal Nationalist

Eight Cubed Leader

Mad Medievalist

Lt. General

Your Industrial Friend

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Captain