Beta Patch - CRUSADES

[unmerged(6777)]

Yes, but usually when there's a will there's a way.

Approach #1

One of the interesting things I noticed when testing the new declare_war event command is that it seems to bypass some of the normal DOW stuff so it's entirely possible (likely actually) that forcing a DOW via this command in an event would remove the need to have a claim. So I *think* that in fact the only one who can't easily get involved in that war right now would be a human player (because I excluded human player to avoid the possibility of spamming him with demands that are really geared towards the AI). I can easily rectify this (would take me less than 30 minutes to adjust).

Approach #2

At present the declare_war command doesn't accept a country tag as an argument, but I would guess that it would be a relatively trivial thing for Johan to add to the valid arguments in the code (if necesary, and as long as he didn't have to add error checking to it as well). If I'm correct, that would mean that I could script an event that checks if a specific tag owns Roma and then trigger the war via a string of events (a little like the ones I'm using for the crusades right now). Not very elegant, requires specific knowledge of who it need to check for, and requires one event per tag, but it could be done...

Approach #3

Another approach is to manufacture claims...easy for adjacent rulers but not so easy for anyone else. Fortunately I think that it might already be possible since I *think* that when Johan set up the argument for the declare_war effect he set it up as a valid [target character]. If that's the case (I would have to test it) then a character event could have the following:

effect = { type = add_title_claim which = crusade_target_owner }

Since in this instance whoever owns Roma would be the current target owner, it should be trivial to create an event that will spawn claims against whoever holds it. If that isn't the case, it would be a matter ten minutes or less for Johan to tie it into the valid character target file.

Approach #4

Except that I am rather smitten with the idea that if Byz takes Roma (certainly on the historic Patriarchs' wish lists ) they should get to keep it and recreate the Patriarchy of Roma. The Pope can relocate elsewhere (there are already events scripted and in place to handle that) and the game can continue on as normal.

Those are the ideas that come to mind immediately. There are probably a few other methods to achieve it too...

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Also I think the Byzantine Emperor and other Orthodox Princes should be able to get a piety and prestige bonus for liberating the Patriachates if they are captured. I.e A Bonus for rebuilding the Eastern Empire.

*nods*

I'll confess that my specifc knowledge of the Patriachates is somewhat limited. Could you possibly formulate a "proposal" for how that should be handled so I have a little better overall understanding of what you have in mind. I'll review it and see what I can do in terms of scripting an event set that would allow this as a poosibility. (Might or might not make it into an official patch version but would be fun to script nonetheless )

 

[unmerged(26464)]

*nods*

I'll confess that my specifc knowledge of the Patriachates is somewhat limited. Could you possibly formulate a "proposal" for how that should be handled so I have a little better overall understanding of what you have in mind. I'll review it and see what I can do in terms of scripting an event set that would allow this as a poosibility. (Might or might not make it into an official patch version but would be fun to script nonetheless )

Ok here's the first draft(I'm a bit reticent as many people knowledge about the actual historical matters here are far greater then mine and I might get told off )

When an Orthodox Prince(n.b I'm using Prince here to refer to any level of ruler) captures one of the Patriachates(Roma -might need special case, Constantinople - mabye mabye not, Antiochea, Jerusalem, Alexandria) they recieve an immediate prestige/piety bonus(like capturing Jerusalem in CK 1.0) and they recieve an event as follows:

A Patriachate has been reclaimed! The Empire is being renewed. What should we do with these holy lands

Option A: Appoint a new Patriarch to spread the one true faith!
Results:
The Relevant province is set up as the appropriate ArchBishopric(Antioch, Palestine, Alexandria, Thrace) with an Orthodox Bishop
X Piety increase,
Province Religion converts to Orthodox
X% chance for gaining traits -(whatever is appropriate)

Option B: We don't need a new Patriarch I shall keep these lands for myself!
Results:
X Piety decrease
X Prestige Increase
X% chance for gaining appropriate traits.

Option C(only if not Byz Emperor): The Emperor shall hold the title of Patriarch!
Results:
Byz Emperor gains relevant provinces and Principality titles.
X Prestige Increase
X Piety Increase
X% chance for appropirate tratis.
Increase relations with Byz Emperor

I think seperate events will have to exist for capturing Roma and Constantinople especially if there is no Emperor(Maybe you can be proclaimed Emperor or someone is made Emperor of Russia instead like in real life)

Edit: Many of the Orthodox Kingdoms are BIG so having particular events to bring them into existence may be the way to go. Also I've toyed with making Moldau, Wallachia and Torki independant Duchies(no native kingdoms) to cut down on Hungarys size and Encourage independant Princes in these lands. It seems to be good though the chance of the Ai actually setting up a duchy there and having it go independant is pretty slim(unless they go heretic)

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Cool!

Okay, let me chew on those for a bit and let's see if anyone else wants to add suggestions or offer refinements to your ideas. Some of that may be difficult to achieve via events, but I'll see what I can do within the existing event framework and also have a look at what might be required to achieve something that isn't currently possible.

Thanks.

 

[unmerged(26464)]

Cool!

Okay, let me chew on those for a bit and let's see if anyone else wants to add suggestions or offer refinements to your ideas. Some of that may be difficult to achieve via events, but I'll see what I can do within the existing event framework and also have a look at what might be required to achieve something that isn't currently possible.

Thanks.

Great Is there much chance of Setting up Kiev, Pereslavl, Don, and Crimea as a new Kingdom called Ukraine mabye? I don't know if it is historically accurate but it would cut down on Rus's size and make conquering Cuman a bit more feasable.

P.S I think a new Sticky thread might be needed just to talk about Orthodox issues.

 

[total]

some questions I thought about reading this interesting thread :

- is it possible to give a province to someone (in the game or by events)?

- is it possible to create a Bishopric (or a Republic ) with events ?

- if you declare the war with the new command : will you have something to "negociate" after the war ? (I believe you can negociate only claims that ennemies have against each other?)

- the "add_title_claim" command : I believe it gives you only the first title of the caracter ; for example if the Byz emperor takes Rome, with this command you will get the claim for Byz, not the claim for Rome ; then you'll be able to negociate only this title with the emperor, not Rome ?

 

[Spruce]

the crusades in my game =

- I had one on Alexandria and Toledo. Croatia took Alexandria and about 2 provinces around Alexandria. England did take Toledo and about 4 surrounding (scattered) provinces. Brittany took some more east - but perhaps this was due to an alliance.

both resulted in the capture of the target provinces by kingdoms, but the surroundings didn't get captured - due to vassals presence (vassal not dow'd) or peace with infidels event? Don't know, ...

Perhaps the general idea should be that a Christian kingdom dow's the entire Muslim tier (so king, dukes and counts) standing in the target province. After that events can fire (similar with peace with the infidels) where you can buy off some peace to make the effort more realistic.

the biggst problem I have is that the crusades are never called off. Even when the target is taken by fellow christians.

weird. But it seems the game is getting more and more fun to play

 

[november]

In my game, the first crusade was called about 10 years after game start and crusades have been called with regularity ever since (including an annoying one against fellow Christian Byzantium). Anyway, much of the Holy Land and Africa was Christianized early on (and the Christians have increased their hold on Iberia), all of which is very different from earlier versions.

 

[unmerged(12299)]

Crusades

Im playing England. Very Hard/Furious

So far the Crusades in my game seem to be working just fine.
1st Crusade: 1088 -> Alexandria. There was lots of European participation, including Kingdoms that were bought off. They redeclared and piled on the Fatamids (seems kind of weird to me but if I was a Christian king I would be more than happy to finance a war with my enemies money). Lasted no more than 2 years with almost all of Egypt falling. 1090 Crusade was done, didnt even realize it.
2nd Crusade: 1096-7? -> Jerusalem. What I thought was going to be an epic turned out to be a waste because the Fatamids had been gutted in the 1st Crusade. Jerusalem fell to me and I took most of the surrounding area (not enough to be King though). The Fatamids vassals didnt get involved most of them sat idly by while the remnants of the Fats was crushed, bug or WaD? Less than a year later Crusade over. Disappointed but meh... I think the circumstances played out well.
3rd Crusade: 1119 -> Palermo. This one dragged and I didnt get involved. Took nearly 5 years for Palermo to fall and then another 2 for the Crusade to end and I think it only ended because the Muslims retook Jerusalem.
4th Crusade A: 1126 -> Jerusalem. Lasted maybe half a year. I waited to build up money to support the fight and my ships had just left Essex when the flag blinked and there was a new objective. Germany conquered Jerusalem. New Obj. Burgos, took me a while to find it but I smashed it good when I did. This Crusade was a meat grinder. Took me 12 years and 2 kings to take it but as soon as I did the Crusade ended. The Iberian muslims were a lot stronger than the Arabian ones, is this supposed to be this way?

The Crusades seem to be working fine for me. Just wanted to pass on my observations.

 

[esbenmf]

1 st. Crusade about 1077-82, Target Alexandria. Both England and France joined in. Most of Egypt conqured quite fast. The English king took half, Duchy of Anjou the rest. This ended in Orleans and Ile de france being conqured by fatimids and retaken by french vassals, so now the french king is situated in one province in southern France. There is a real need for some reconfiguring of interreligious wars. In this instance the french king ought to have his provinces (Orleans and Ile de france) back, instead of his vassals keeping them.

2. nd crusade about 1085-86. Target Jerusalem. Hungary, Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, Norway, Bohemia joined in and has taken various provinces in the area around jerusalem (including jerusalem taken by Hungary). The Fatimids need to learn how/when to call upon vassaltroops and to combine armies. The positive thing about this is that no muslim Bohemia or other small muslim northern european states occured.

The military access NEEDS to be reworked, for this game to work. Apart from that is is a huge increase in enjoyment to watch major powers go on crusades.

Esben

 

[unmerged(6777)]

The Fatamids vassals didnt get involved most of them sat idly by while the remnants of the Fats was crushed, bug or WaD?

Oversight.

In my initial tests after adding the event to have independent rulers start DOWing, I discovered that when the DOW is as a result of the event it by-passes the usual AI logic of calling on their vassals to assist them. As a result I had to write a second event to "invite" the vassals to join the party (else they did nothing).

My oversight is to forget to address the other half of the equation sinc eI hadn't noticed that the DOW also results in the moslem ruler not calling on his vassals. I'll have to add an event to take care of that (somehow...not exactly sure how I'm going to do that yet and it may be limited to having them only react once the crusade target has fallen to the invading crusaders.

I'll have to ponder that one a bit.

 

[Hogar]

There is a thing I don't like about the crusades. Big christian kingdoms (France, England) conquer the provinces for them selves. This is a bit ahistorical because they always passed the land to local xian kingdom.
Is it possible to get them to give these provinces away?
I tried to find solution to this by giving independence to these provinces... It normally works fine, because they normally become vassal to already present local christian kingdom...
Something along the lin.. where lands conquered from muslim nation during crusade are set independent when crusade is over??? I think too hard to script, right?

 

[Third Angel]

1066/Very hard/Agressive

First crusade was called upon Alexandria between 1075 and 1080 and brilliantly fought by the King of Germany, now also King of Egypt, who took for himself two provinces, while his vassals took one for Bavaria, Provence and Luxembourg, three for Saxony , and amazingly four, including the target, for Pisa. All those were taken in the Nile valley and form a massive territory very different of the usually scattered north-african christian counties.
Now I think this is the way it should work. My only worry is about christian king, dukes and governor keeping land for themselves even though some counties were created. Actually Alexandria is the capital of the pisan republic, I don’t think any such thing ever happened.

I was waiting for the second crusade on Jerusalem to see if there would be more kingdoms crusading but it never came. Instead a crusade was called against Roma in 1086. Playing an obscure russian count, I hadn’t noticed anything but Roma had indeed fallen, not to muslims or even to pagans but to some other obscure russian count. I have read that several people reported Roma being taken by Byzantium and I can’t figure out what new interest orthodox lords have in Roma with the new patch. The Papacy, who had settled on its vassals’ lands, was finally destroyed by Bohemians after the crusade was called, which is weird too.

 

[november]

In my game where a crusade was called against a Byzantium controlled Roma, Roma eventually became Muslim controlled and I was able to capture it and so end the crusade.

But as I was fighting half the Muslim world over that little dust up, a crusade was called against Muslim controlled Cordoba—fine. Except that Cordoba has long since been captured by Christians yet the crusade goes on and on and my piety (my new King of Naples is 3) drops more and more. It’s –50 about now (must be a wicked little bugger).

 

[unmerged(6777)]

In the next patch I will disable the Rome crusade being callled if #333 is owned by an Orthodox ruler. I haven't exactly figured out how to deal with that situation, but it's obviously causing problems as it currently stands.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

I'll see if I can figure out a way to encourage new lands captured by Christians during the crusades to be set up as independent realms. Probably won't make it into the next patch but I will try to come up with a solution as soon as I can.

 

[LordLeto]

Ive noticed one little bug. Toledo was owned by a Moslim vassel of Castile, the Pope called a crusade to free it, when Castile ups and declares on its vassel(making it indipendant) and the Crusade ends. :wacko: Is ownership for ending the crusade tied to the Kingdom as a whole or that single province?

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Bizarre!

Being able to call a crusade to somewhere is based on the ruler of the target province not being Catholic or Orthodox. The end of the crusade can happen in three instances:

1. The papal controller calls it off even if it hasn't succeeded.
2. The papal controller calls it off when it has succeeded.
3. The papacy is destroyed.

Success is defined by "target province is directly owned by a Catholic or Orthodox ruler" for #1 or #2.

#1 can happen any time after the crusade starts, but has a fairly long mtth value. This is designed such that crusades won't last forever, even if unsuccessful. The odds are that it will probably average around 20 years per unsuccessful crusade, but with a "lucky" die roll it could end as little as a day later. Of course it could also drag on for 100 years. The CK event system doesn't allow you to limit the duration of something...only the likelihood of something starting or stopping. In this instance it's a bit like playing a slot machine. If you're amazingly lucky you'll hit a jackpot in your first couple of spins. If you're unlucky (and rich!) you could sit there for years until you finally hit one.

#2 can only happen if the current owner (immediate ruler) of the target province is Catholic or Orthodox. It has a fairly short mtth value in the order of about 5-10 years (depends a bit on the target) and is further modfied by two factors: whether you've captured surrounding provinces (usually to a depth of 2 provinces - each one slightly reducing the mtth) and whether some of these provinces have been converted to Catholic or Orthodox. The more provinces you capture and convert, the sooner the crusade-ending event is likely to trigger. Again, it's like a slot machine (once the target has been captured) but in this case it's a *very* loose slot machine that pays out pretty frequently.

#3 happens if the current pope (not papal controller) is removed from the game. If this happens, there's an event with a very short mtth which will trigger for the player, telling him that the papacy has been wiped out. The only action (option) for the event is to call the current crusade to an end. Soon, another event should bring the papacy back into existence somewhere else (there are several possible papacy-in-exile locations) and shortly after that the pope will call to arms and ask you to go crusading to Rome to get his turf back for him.

It's hard to know what happened in your case...but my guess would be that the improbable "end crusade even though it failed" event must have occured. If the target province was still owned by the now-independent moslem duke/count of Toledo then it can't end via option #2. I suspect that you would have mentioned if #3 had happened, so that really only leaves the one possibility.

If not, there's a logic bug somewhere in my event chain that I'm not aware of and if that's the case then it will need fixing. (Note that the next patch will correct one oversight that I made, but that isn't relevant to this situation.)

 

[Spruce]

MrT,

what about the "surroundings", does the crusading AI attacks the entire Muslim tier controlling the target. Or does the AI just dow's all provinces in the "surroundings".

I've observed 2 crusades that wheren't called off and surroundings did get captured (but the AI was at peace with all the surroundings after the main target had fallen)

 

[LordLeto]

Yea the Papacy was still there, with Rome(and some expanded terr. in south Italy thanks to some moslims), and it(Toledo) was still controlled by a moslim. Guess it was just a odd roll of the dice.