Beta of 5.1 - 21st June 2011 - Discussion Thread

[Darkrenown]

Last post about this here, but:

Why is Japan working as designed in it's current state?

Couldn't it be considered trolling for someone to post something inflationary like Japan is working as designed, without a follow up? That was the very beginning of how this thread got off topic in the first place. Many of these ideas and complaints have been said before without any response or resolution, and when Balor said what he did it seems as though that is the closest this forum has ever come to hearing a reason why the Japan problem has never been rectified. So, 15 pages in, we are still asking the same question. What you call trolling would be eased significantly if we could only have an answer to this simple question.

I'm sure I've talked about Japan in the past. And no, I don't think Johan saying saying it's working as designed could be counted as trolling, nor do I think he's required to answer further questions from you unless he feels like it. I can't speak for him, but I supect he saw people saying "X is happening" and since X is WAD, he made a quick "That's WAD" post. It was a quick, off the cuff remark from his home account, and he's off this week. There's no sinister background to it.

As for Japan. The whole "Japan is internally divided, but externally still viewed as one country" system meant we had to make the emperor's nation un-annexable, as it's loss would break the daimyo system. The downside of this is of course that you cannot conquer Japan before it has been united. "WAD" doesn't mean "Perfect" or "Will never change", but it is working in the way it was designed to do.

However, if you want to talk about the design of Japan further, please make a new thread.

How is remarking that the patch still hasn't implemented something he thinks it should have not talking about the patch?!

Well you could talk about almost anything here by that logic. Try to keep the patch threads to stuff that has changed in the patch, as getting feedback about that is the prime purpose of these threads.

 

[Garak]

I like the idea behind #2 and #3, it would definitely help the Russian countries expand more quickly instead of Poland and Lithuania.

#1 is just ... false. There are tons of historical examples of nomads conquering areas outside of the steppe. The Seljuk Turks and their conquests of Byzantine territory in Anatolia (along with cities like Nicaea) for example. Another good example, China, has already been mentioned.

True, but at the same time, the terrain around Novgorod is one of the reasons that city didn't fall under Tatar control as many of the other Russian principalities did. A hard limit might be too much, but something to represent why Novgorod wasn't conquered by the GH could be useful.

 

[Ratlegion]

Last post about this here, but:


I'm sure I've talked about Japan in the past. And no, I don't think Johan saying saying it's working as designed could be counted as trolling, nor do I think he's required to answer further questions from you unless he feels like it. I can't speak for him, but I supect he saw people saying "X is happening" and since X is WAD, he made a quick "That's WAD" post. It was a quick, off the cuff remark from his home account, and he's off this week. There's no sinister background to it.

As for Japan. The whole "Japan is internally divided, but externally still viewed as one country" system meant we had to make the emperor's nation un-annexable, as it's loss would break the daimyo system. The downside of this is of course that you cannot conquer Japan before it has been united. "WAD" doesn't mean "Perfect" or "Will never change", but it is working in the way it was designed to do.

However, if you want to talk about the design of Japan further, please make a new thread.



Well you could talk about almost anything here by that logic. Try to keep the patch threads to stuff that has changed in the patch, as getting feedback about that is the prime purpose of these threads.

Thank you for your fair answer.

 

[6354201]

True, but at the same time, the terrain around Novgorod is one of the reasons that city didn't fall under Tatar control as many of the other Russian principalities did. A hard limit might be too much, but something to represent why Novgorod wasn't conquered by the GH could be useful.

This is, more or less, already represented through rough terrain penalties (though I do think terrain penalties should be harsher).

 

[incognitus]

I started a thread for the Japan issues...

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?544458-Fixing-Japan

 

[DanubianCossak]

Darkrenown, can you tell us if Paradox has a dedicated EU3 DW patch team (if you do whos the leader), or are these patches done randomly by different people when they feel like patching/if they feel like patching?

I understand that you guys have other projects that need attention (some would argue too many projects), but if you cant/dont want to fix some stuff, why dont you create a team of moders (non Paradox people willing to help) who could easily, in a few weeks fix basically all scripting errors, and if provided access to exe stuff even add a lot more additional content without Paradox staff losing any workhours, other than checking and "OKing" changes.

By community for community.

 

[AndrewT]

... fix basically all scripting errors ...

I am fixing all text-based bugs that are reported in the Bug Reports forum. I do this to free up dev time for code-based bugs. One result has been complaints that too much attention was paid to "minor" issues at the expense of more serious bugs *sigh* . Please report any others you know of there.

 

[DanubianCossak]

But wouldnt it be much better if Paradox would create, like a dedicated team of people who would simply keep working on Eu3.

With their own sub forum, divided into 2 groups: group one fixing script errors (if allowed by Paradox, maybe even rework some blatant errors on map, IIRC some ghost islands, bad positions - Croatia for example, confusing northern coast of Russia etc) and a second group that could do stuff on "hard" codded stuff. Its been quite a while since EU3 was released, and while i fully understand why Paradox wishes to keep "hard" codded stuff locked, im just saying, making some additional stuff modable, or even slightly changed could give another year or 2 to the gameplay easily even without making a whole new expansion.

On top of all that, if Paradox so desires, even a third group could be created that could easily, within a week or 2, completely rework the Japan system and replace the current "countries" with historic ones - and yes i know there are mods that do this already, im just saying, something more official (vanillaish if you want) could and should be done. Im willing to work on such project myself, and im sure others would help as well.

And yes, AndrewT i knew that you were fixing stuff, im just saying, thats basically an individual effort, a dedicated team could work much more efficiently, even beta test stuff much faster than one individual can. On top of that, im not really keen on reporting stuff, im just too lazy to do that within required format.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

I don't think they have the manpower to permanently dedicate one or more people just to patching. Like many "small" things in a small company, it's probably something that one or two employees are tasked with, additionally to their other jobs.

If Paradox were as big as Microsoft they would have a perm team for this, but they ain't Microsoft.

 

[Steezus Christ]

He's not talking about Paradox employees, he is talking about the community working on patches. People would no doubt jump at the chance to do it. It sure would be appreciated as it does seem like Paradox has bitten off more than it can chew when it comes to getting their patches out while working on so many other projects at once.

 

[unmerged(205148)]

As for Japan. The whole "Japan is internally divided, but externally still viewed as one country" system meant we had to make the emperor's nation un-annexable, as it's loss would break the daimyo system. The downside of this is of course that you cannot conquer Japan before it has been united.

Maybe a decision that lets someone who controls Kyoto and all four Daimyo capitals inherit Japan and the Daymios? Only if the Daymios are all OPM's, of course. Something like that:

country_decisions = {

annex_japan = {
potential = {
controls = 1020
}
allow =
{
controls = 1014 # Bungo
controls = 1829 # Mimasaka
controls = 1841 # Izu
controls = 1835 # Mino
MIN = {
NOT = { num_of_cities = 2 }
}
TAC = {
NOT = { num_of_cities = 2 }
}
FUJ = {
NOT = { num_of_cities = 2 }
}
TAI = {
NOT = { num_of_cities = 2 }
}
}
effect = {
inherit = JAP
inherit = MIN
inherit = TAC
inherit = FUJ
inherit = TAI
infamy = 8
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

}

Oh, and that issue doesn't affect only WC players. You can want to annex Japan without wanting to do a WC. And I consider the unannexable Japan and too-easily-conquered Maghreb to be all parts of the same issue, the "unpolishedness" of DW.

 

[wraitii]

Quick request, if by chance any developer reads me: I see you've fixed the AI building buildings (I wasn't aware it was bugged, but anyway ), could we have some sort of "ai_chance" modifier in the buildings.txt file?
It could be useful for mods that give some events if you build specific buildings or things like that. Some sort of control over what building the AI will prioritize.
(BTW, how clever is the AI? Does it generally builds all buildings, or does it builds them depending on it's need/what it will bring?)

As for Japan. The whole "Japan is internally divided, but externally still viewed as one country" system meant we had to make the emperor's nation un-annexable, as it's loss would break the daimyo system. The downside of this is of course that you cannot conquer Japan before it has been united. "WAD" doesn't mean "Perfect" or "Will never change", but it is working in the way it was designed to do.

Wouldn't it be easier to allow to DOW daimyos, but all at once? And to only be able to make peace with all of them at once? Would probably have had the same effect without all the "side-effects" people seem to complain about.
Not that I care, I never ever invade Japan.

 

[Johan]

And yes, AndrewT i knew that you were fixing stuff, im just saying, thats basically an individual effort, a dedicated team could work much more efficiently, even beta test stuff much faster than one individual can. On top of that, im not really keen on reporting stuff, im just too lazy to do that within required format.

It doesn't work.

We've had some of the most renowned modders/community people working together helping on various times at helping us with bugfixes or research data for games for the last decade.

What always happens is the following.

1) They require alot of babysitting. Which someone with design knowledge has to do, which rather negates the purpose.
2) Focus becomes rather scattered, depending on the personal whims of the volunteers.
3) Errors creep in into the files, and they may base them on wrong versions.

Basically, for every 5 volunteers, you need someone paid to manage them for as much time as they spend on fixing things, and well... 1 guy is basically 33% of a paradox development team.

 

[Johan]

Quick request, if by chance any developer reads me: I see you've fixed the AI building buildings (I wasn't aware it was bugged, but anyway ), could we have some sort of "ai_chance" modifier in the buildings.txt file?
It could be useful for mods that give some events if you build specific buildings or things like that. Some sort of control over what building the AI will prioritize.
(BTW, how clever is the AI? Does it generally builds all buildings, or does it builds them depending on it's need/what it will bring?)


Wouldn't it be easier to allow to DOW daimyos, but all at once? And to only be able to make peace with all of them at once? Would probably have had the same effect without all the "side-effects" people seem to complain about.
Not that I care, I never ever invade Japan.

The AI checks the values for the modifier values to weight which building.

However, I could make an additional AI_chance for modders.....

 

[wraitii]

Thanks for the (insanely) short answer, Johan

Good to see the AI's holding up with all the new features, BTW.

 

[Hinkelstein]

Johan, is it possible to get the patch, when you have a steam EU3 complete edition? The EU3 chronicals key doesnt work for it, just HTTT and DW.. without the other, you cant enter the tech forum

 

[Darkrenown]

We're still waiting on a solution to that. I was going to point your at the forum help thread, but I see you have posted there already.

 

[Kull1]

It doesn't work.

We've had some of the most renowned modders/community people working together helping on various times at helping us with bugfixes or research data for games for the last decade.

What always happens is the following.

1) They require alot of babysitting. Which someone with design knowledge has to do, which rather negates the purpose.
2) Focus becomes rather scattered, depending on the personal whims of the volunteers.
3) Errors creep in into the files, and they may base them on wrong versions.

Basically, for every 5 volunteers, you need someone paid to manage them for as much time as they spend on fixing things, and well... 1 guy is basically 33% of a paradox development team.

Unfortunately he's absolutely correct. By definition, mod teams are composed of unpaid volunteers. With few exceptions the individual members tend to work in fits and starts, and are most effective when working on something near and dear to their hearts. I served as Project Manager for a large mod team composed of many hugely talented individuals, and when I tried to utilize basic PM tools such as milestones and deadlines, the result was near revolt. Mod teams are capable of marvelous things and they are a joy to work on, but they are the antithesis of a professional software development company.

 

[George LeS]

Does Paradox use the Validator? I know it's not 100% accurate, but it sure is a godsend. And it does detect a number of vanilla errors, enough that there's an option to ignore them.

 

[unmerged(250188)]

Pointed out in another thread but goldenhorde.txt in countries has:

graphical_culture = muslimfx

Instead of Muslimgfx.