Beta of 5.1 - 21st June 2011 - Discussion Thread

[Mammoet]

I'd like to add, that playing a Daimyo isn't fun due to strange mechanisms in the Shogunate system. The limitation of diplomatic actions caused by the Shogunate Influence cause more problem than the basically good idea is worth. Not all limitations seem to make sense and even as Shogun a high Influence can often times be disadvantageous. Since there is no proper way to reduce influence, this leads to explotive measures, like multiple selections of "Endorse Culture" to force your own Prestige down in order to lose Influence. Also pointless missions aiming for the Emperor keep firing for the Daimyos. Please do something about these issues in the next patch! After all DW is kind of about Asia and the brilliant balancing (kudos, seriously!!!) of the four Daimyos would make 1399 Japan an ideal MP scenario - but not in the condition it is in momentarily.

I'd just like to point out that it is pretty easy to decrease the shogunate influence, just get into bad relations with the other Daymo's and don't get your prestige up so high. It helps that Japan gets all the infamy+prestige from outside wars. There are still some diplomacy bugs in the system though. That and there are a quite a few missions that are almost impossible, because you need to have a NI for it.

 

[Sayd]

Idea:
1) hordes can only gain provinces in steppes, they are nomads, they can't live in forrest becouse horses and sheeps need many pastures, especially in winter times.
2) country can colonize horde province if province population is in different culture group.
3) country can't colonize horde province if province population is in primary culture group, province should just defect to them after some years of occupation.

 

[Emhster]

I don't disagree, but I feel like I should point out that there have been plenty of posts doing just that. In fact, entire threads with a lot of specific commentary about what's wrong (or perceived to be wrong) with the horde system exist.

edit: Forgot to add that I'm not saying all of that input has been ignored. Even though I still intensely dislike the horde system, it has been improved since DW was first released.

Oh yeah there are a lot of interesting posts in this thread, I was just trying to answer to George LeS.

 

[unmerged(313479)]

Idea:
1) hordes can only gain provinces in steppes, they are nomads, they can't live in forrest becouse horses and sheeps need many pastures, especially in winter times.
2) country can colonize horde province if province population is in different culture group.
3) country can't colonize horde province if province population is in primary culture group, province should just defect to them after some years of occupation.

There's lots of nomads in jungles...

 

[grommile]

There's lots of nomads in jungles...

How many of them ever built empires?

The "steppe_horde" government is designed to simulate, well, the horse-riding nomadic peoples of the Central Asian steppes, who did build a continent-spanning empire.

 

[BRK]

Hordes should probably be able to raid and take non-steppe provinces but there has to be a penalty for distance from capital or something, the farther away the occupied province is the longer it'd take to flip and with greater revolt risk.

 

[nOxr]

Idea:
1) hordes can only gain provinces in steppes, they are nomads, they can't live in forrest becouse horses and sheeps need many pastures, especially in winter times.
2) country can colonize horde province if province population is in different culture group.
3) country can't colonize horde province if province population is in primary culture group, province should just defect to them after some years of occupation.

1. Just like normal people, nomads are fully capable of living in forests. Also, they are fully capable of owning a province without actually living in it, if that would please them. For example, they owned China, which is a large province in east asia.

2 & 3. What about having a severe penalty when attempting to colonize a core horde province? And perhaps a bonus when colonizing non-core horde provinces.

 

[nOxr]

Hordes should probably be able to raid and take non-steppe provinces but there has to be a penalty for distance from capital or something, the farther away the occupied province is the longer it'd take to flip and with greater revolt risk.

Not a bad idea, but we will have to remember that the mongol hordes just recently had their capital in mongolia and were pretty used of operating half a world away. I think a solution would be to teach the AI the value of not grabbing provinces and instead grab gold.

 

[Darkrenown]

I'm just a bit curious about where the line is, in the minds of Paradox, which demarcates excessive criticism. I ask because, on the job, I've found that programmers often take personal offense at criticism of their programs' features.

Obviously "Johan is &^%$" is wrong.

But, in response to "It's WAD", is "The design is &^%$", over the top?

In the absence of "It's WAD", is "The design is &^%$", over the top, or not?

Just want to know. I try to avoid the personal, but in discussing game features, especially naval ones, I confess to sometimes talking like a sailor.

"The design is bad/I do not like the design" etc is fine. If your &^%$ becomes actual curse words it's against the rules though.

 

[6354201]

Idea:
1) hordes can only gain provinces in steppes, they are nomads, they can't live in forrest becouse horses and sheeps need many pastures, especially in winter times.
2) country can colonize horde province if province population is in different culture group.
3) country can't colonize horde province if province population is in primary culture group, province should just defect to them after some years of occupation.

I like the idea behind #2 and #3, it would definitely help the Russian countries expand more quickly instead of Poland and Lithuania.

#1 is just ... false. There are tons of historical examples of nomads conquering areas outside of the steppe. The Seljuk Turks and their conquests of Byzantine territory in Anatolia (along with cities like Nicaea) for example. Another good example, China, has already been mentioned.

 

[Darkrenown]

Stop asking questions. Everyone here, myself included, must eventually acknowledge that what we say makes SENSE, but it's what Paradox says that makes DOLLARS!

Yeah, no. "Don't make personal attacks" =! "No one is allowed to ask questions". If you want to troll, find another forum.

 

[unmerged(277230)]

Yeah, no. "Don't make personal attacks" =! "No one is allowed to ask questions". If you want to troll, find another forum.

Well said sir. Assuming your a sir, since I have no idea. But either way good job.

 

[Darkrenown]

Thanks. But anyway, let's get back to posting about the patch/game etc

 

[safferli]

Thanks. But anyway, let's get back to posting about the patch/game etc

Yes, please. But only the patch, please. Other game topics can be made outside the patch thread

 

[Ratlegion]

Yeah, no. "Don't make personal attacks" =! "No one is allowed to ask questions". If you want to troll, find another forum.

Why is Japan working as designed in it's current state?

Couldn't it be considered trolling for someone to post something inflationary like Japan is working as designed, without a follow up? That was the very beginning of how this thread got off topic in the first place. Many of these ideas and complaints have been said before without any response or resolution, and when Balor said what he did it seems as though that is the closest this forum has ever come to hearing a reason why the Japan problem has never been rectified. So, 15 pages in, we are still asking the same question. What you call trolling would be eased significantly if we could only have an answer to this simple question.

 

[unmerged(277230)]

Why is Japan working as designed in it's current state?

Couldn't it be considered trolling for someone to post something inflationary like Japan is working as designed, without a follow up? That was the very beginning of how this thread got off topic in the first place. Many of these ideas and complaints have been said before without any response or resolution, and when Balor said what he did it seems as though that is the closest this forum has ever come to hearing a reason why the Japan problem has never been rectified. So, 15 pages in, we are still asking the same question. What you call trolling would be eased significantly if we could only have an answer to this simple question.

Do you have corn in your ears? (A homage to a great cartoon from my childhood) Just stick with talking about the patch -__-

 

[fridabina]

So what does "- Crimea, Golden Horde and Trebizond now belongs to another graphics group." mean exactly?

 

[incognitus]

How is remarking that the patch still hasn't implemented something he thinks it should have not talking about the patch?!

There have been some great improvements made since DW vanilla, but some core (of course that's arguable) issues haven't even been touched. And instead of a discussion between consumer and supplier we have consumers ranting and annoying each other while the (only?) reaction from PI was a "That's design". That is not dialogue. Where else are we supposed to ask for changes to be made in patches? And where will we receive an answer on whether it's gonna be fixed or not?

So what does "- Crimea, Golden Horde and Trebizond now belongs to another graphics group." mean exactly?

Their units look like muslim troops now and no longer like russian troops.

 

[fridabina]

Their units look like muslim troops now and no longer like russian troops.

When i checked GH looked like they had western troops, Crimea had muslim textures tough.

 

[Palaiologos]

Trebizond pre patch had muslim-looking troops. I take it they have been moved to "Oriental"?