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Apocaliptica

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For the record. Hordes being powerful early and then declining is the intent.

Well that's ok, but I usually play ottoman empire and you got like no chance against three hordes.
I know it's historically correct that the ottomans get weakened by the timurids and lose a few provinces, but they recovered fast, managed to knock them back, conquer the turkish main land and bigger parts of the balkan within 1500.

I NEVER managed to get the size of the 1500 szenario when I start the grand campaign. Im always getting spammed with 30k+ doomstacks every 5 years and I cant do sh**.
Maybe the AI ottoman can do that with cheating/spawning armies, but I cant.
 

Misan

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There's an issue in MP now.

I was playing as Holland, my friend was Japan. If I used the new Human Player thing to select him, I would get the "Japan Discovered" "Discover Kyoto" etc events. Granted I could only see his capital.We restarted multiple times and deleted our caches etc but with the same result. It didn't happen if I didn't click on him though. Maybe make it so that you can't select them if you haven't discovered them?
 

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Having said that, I forgot to mention that the map cache is still wonky.

Are you are referring to the extend = map issue?

In a recent test using the 6-29-11 beta three major modders Haftetavenscrap (WWM), gigau (MEIOU), and myself (Terra Nova) all got CTD with map = extend but Paradox is unable to recreate so we are instructed by Johan in the bug report thread to use map = replace instead.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ay-in-game&p=12579341&viewfull=1#post12579341

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...r-and-Maps&p=12565584&viewfull=1#post12565584
 
Last edited:

Blastaz

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- Vassalise is now spelled Vassalize. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Get out USEnglish, get out of my game!
 

Pleiades

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For the record. Hordes being powerful early and then declining is the intent.

In game they are powerful more than 70 years. They should be powerful about 40 years max in game and then be replaced with even more powerful Russia.

Instead Bohemia and/or Poland with snake shape take all those areas north of Caucasus when Golden Horde is in decline and Russia is never formed. On the other hand Ottomans in first 70 years are pressurized by both Golden Horde over Moldavia and Timurids on the east and Castille crusades from the west and they usually remain weak throughout the rest of the game.

So no Russia and no Ottomans in most games because of initial strengths of hordes.
 

The Blood Eagle

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Are you are referring to the extend = map issue?

In a recent test using the 6-29-11 beta three major modders Haftetavenscrap (WWM), gigau (MEIOU), and myself (Terra Nova) all got CTD with map = extend but Paradox is unable to recreate so we are instructed by Johan in the bug report thread to use map = replace instead.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ay-in-game&p=12579341&viewfull=1#post12579341

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...r-and-Maps&p=12565584&viewfull=1#post12565584

I don't know what the specifics are, but after 1 game that extends into the latter half of the 17th century, in every subsequent game Portugal discovers Japan instantly and almost all the map is revealed by 1500.
 

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There's an issue in MP now.

I was playing as Holland, my friend was Japan. If I used the new Human Player thing to select him, I would get the "Japan Discovered" "Discover Kyoto" etc events. Granted I could only see his capital.We restarted multiple times and deleted our caches etc but with the same result. It didn't happen if I didn't click on him though. Maybe make it so that you can't select them if you haven't discovered them?

Fixing.
 

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Well that's ok, but I usually play ottoman empire and you got like no chance against three hordes.
I know it's historically correct that the ottomans get weakened by the timurids and lose a few provinces, but they recovered fast, managed to knock them back, conquer the turkish main land and bigger parts of the balkan within 1500.

I NEVER managed to get the size of the 1500 szenario when I start the grand campaign. Im always getting spammed with 30k+ doomstacks every 5 years and I cant do sh**.
Maybe the AI ottoman can do that with cheating/spawning armies, but I cant.

The AI doesn't cheat it... Most things we see on hordes is OE and russian states sometimes being too weak as AI.

Maybe you can try play at a lower difficulty level, as we've gotten a lot of reports on people winning easily as OE.
 

Apocaliptica

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In my eyes, playing on easy is way harder than playing on normal.
on easy, even smaller countries can produce armies out of thin air (most likely a manpower modificator) while they cant on normal difficulty.

in 3 of 4 cases of my tryouts you can see AI-controlled ottoman empire being completely dismantled by minors (most likely due to the three hordes which first conquer the OE territory and then lose it).
 

unmerged(202023)

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The AI doesn't cheat it... Most things we see on hordes is OE and russian states sometimes being too weak as AI.

Maybe you can try play at a lower difficulty level, as we've gotten a lot of reports on people winning easily as OE.

I think the main problem is, that tribute does not count as 100 % warscore despite oftentimes being the maximum achievable result. Thus the horde will often not accept any peace offers and steamroll everything.
 

Blastaz

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The AI doesn't cheat it... Most things we see on hordes is OE and russian states sometimes being too weak as AI.

Maybe you can try play at a lower difficulty level, as we've gotten a lot of reports on people winning easily as OE.

All the Russian countries should have Scotland style modifiers to boost their tax and manpower to give them some help against the horde while it is still strong. A set of generic form russia missions available to all of them which kicked in at 1480 or so would allow whicheve one survived to actually form Russia.

Tweaking the OE's missions should help as well. Get rid of all those ones to vassalise/diplo annex the Turkish minors that the OE now has a core on and replace it with a conquer Turkey mission that rewards lots of gold or prestegie or something once the OE gets its cores back. I still think a force PU mission is the best way to deal with the Mamelukes as well, maybe make it AI only as it does make things a bit too easy for the player.
 

fenwayb

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For the record. Hordes being powerful early and then declining is the intent.

We get that, and we aren't looking to change that. What we are trying to say is they dominate the Russians, and then either P-L/Bohemia/Austria take over once they decline, and I surely hope THAT'S not wad.
 

Apocaliptica

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also it should be possible to offer them a tribute so they wont attack until I stop paying.
Even if they conquered and sucessfully stole 4 of my provinces, they wont accept.

@fenwayb:

GH usually conquer any russian minor, decimize novgorod, lithuania, poland and the majority of the balkan minors and only stop right before austria.
but yea, the other posters here are correct, mostly bohemia, poland or lithuania steal the GH territory while russia or a russian nation should do that.
 

fenwayb

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also it should be possible to offer them a tribute so they wont attack until I stop paying.
Even if they conquered and sucessfully stole 4 of my provinces, they wont accept.

@fenwayb:

GH usually conquer any russian minor, decimize novgorod, lithuania, poland and the majority of the balkan minors and only stop right before austria.
but yea, the other posters here are correct, mostly bohemia, poland or lithuania steal the GH territory while russia or a russian nation should do that.

that's EXACTLY what I said...
 

Pleiades

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I forgot to mention Persia after dissolving Timurids. In HttT they were decent rival to Ottomans and India countries. Now Timurids often last until 1700s and when Persia is born, she is weak and cannot endure Timurids, not to mention Ottomans and India.

I fixed this temporarily by adding 10 percents revolt risk to horde gov. It helps to dissolve Timurids in first 40 years as happened historically and be replaced by average to strong Persia. Even then Timurids last long presenting challenge to AI India in next 300 years.

However adding revolt risks to hordes didn't help much to forming Russia over Golden Horde. When I put 20 percents revolt risk, Golden horde had great troubles in first 50 years, but again it was Bohemia and Poland north of Caucasus instead of Russia (probably because of catholic bonus for number of colonists).

I actually did these testing systematically in over 20 games picking Indonesia countries and full game speed and doing nothing except body exercises. LOL
 

Simone

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However adding revolt risks to hordes didn't help much to forming Russia over Golden Horde. When I put 20 percents revolt risk, Golden horde had great troubles in first 50 years, but again it was Bohemia and Poland north of Caucasus instead of Russia (probably because of catholic bonus for number of colonists).

could it be a possible way to make catholic countries to need a cored port in order to get colonists? would at least take poland, lithuannia, austria and bohemia out of the east. and can´t think of any other nation that would be hindered by this restriction.
 

matteo123

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I think everyone on the forum is in agreement that it isn't the horde mechanic per se, but the ahistorical outcomes that result without player intervention. I find it annoying that I am playing as GB, Portugal, Holland, etc. and look to the east around 1500 and see a giant Austria/Bohemia/Lithuania/Castille in 9/10 games. I am of the opinion that regions that a player is not involved in should develop along somewhat historic lines. While it doesn't have to be Muscovy, I would like to see some Russian/Orthodox country control that region. Similarly, the OE was such an important player in the scope of EU3, it can't be WAD that the OE gets crushed in 75% of games that have a start date of before 1600.

Since I posted on this topic a few weeks ago, I have started each game by loading as the Timurids and the GH and disbanded armies and declared war on other hordes to lower stability. I then load up as Holland or whatever HRE OPM I feel like playing and go from there. In most instances, this leads to the Russian countries quickly taking land from the GH and the Timurids getting checked enough that they stick around but don't turn into a super-blob. I was criticized for the "gamey-ness" of this strategy, but I don't see it as a problem as I (as Holland) have nothing to fear from the hordes but only want to see a more historical eastern Europe.

Members of the forum have posted great ideas about how the hordes can be fixed. For example, I think using cores and tweaking mechanics to favor core-province colonization would be a great way to handle this issue.

I think that the ideas behind DW are fantastic; EU has always been too Western European focused. The issue that 90% of forum members have is that two of the largest "additions" to the game (Japan and hordes) were fundamentaly broken when we purchased the game.
 

ANO1453

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One question: does the AI even know how to deal with hordes? In my Portugal game I sneak on Eastern Europe and I only saw once an occupied province with settlers (400 or so). Maybe the 1000 settlers threshold is too high?
 

mlepkows

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One question: does the AI even know how to deal with hordes? In my Portugal game I sneak on Eastern Europe and I only saw once an occupied province with settlers (400 or so). Maybe the 1000 settlers threshold is too high?

Yeah, AI can colonize fairly well if it has resources. However, it has difficulty defeating the more numerous and better equiped (pre 1500 or so) horde armies.

I've noticed that Muscovy blobs perfectly well from a 1454 start (lots of minors instead of one big horde). Giving smaller states cores on GH territory and upping the revolt risk should bring the 1454 situation more quickly.

Maciek

EDIT: Thx for the "Piastowie" fix :D
 
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