Beta of 5.1 - 10th of May 2011 - Discussion Thread

[unmerged(76560)]

Reading this thread, i've just started a game as ottoman in 1399 with this patch, and got immediatly taken in sandwish between timurids and golden horde before i could even build a few more armies. i've lost a lot of territories both in Europe and in Asia, my two vassals (as they don't even have to pay in victory points the territories they annex), and i know that they will attack me every 5 years like that with multiple stacks of 25-30k armies... i don't know, i just don't find it very motivating...

 

[Rabid]

I agree. Most Ottoman missions are not helping the AI nor the player. There is not only "vassalize candar" but also "vassalize dulkadir, Karaman, Ramazan, Walachia". As Abnormalmind said, why not just change them to "conquer"? I think the Ottoman AI would profit more from this than from owned vassals which cant help it.

Edit: You even have the mission to vassalize the Mamlukes...

I agree that these missions are useless but they did change the Mamluk one to conquest in one of the earlier beta patches IIRC. It's also really annoying to see the AI never conquer Serbia and Bosnia because they're vassals, sometimes you see a huge green balkans with 2 silly brown blobs in it -.-

 

[unmerged(284034)]

Reading this thread, i've just started a game as ottoman in 1399 with this patch, and got immediatly taken in sandwish between timurids and golden horde before i could even build a few more armies. i've lost a lot of territories both in Europe and in Asia, my two vassals (as they don't even have to pay in victory points the territories they annex), and i know that they will attack me every 5 years like that with multiple stacks of 25-30k armies... i don't know, i just don't find it very motivating...

In all honesty, I don't see how anyone can really play any nation in eastern europe/asia minor and have fun with this patch, Game after game, I'm getting steam rolled by a horde of some description. It wouldn't be so bad if they'd actually accept tribute straight off, rather than razing half of your country to the ground first

 

[pyroclastic]

In all honesty, I don't see how anyone can really play any nation in eastern europe/asia minor and have fun with this patch, Game after game, I'm getting steam rolled by a horde of some description. It wouldn't be so bad if they'd actually accept tribute straight off, rather than razing half of your country to the ground first

Did you try it with the 3/30 patch? If anything, I think the most recent patch makes the hordes a little weaker , since they're really bad at dealing with all the stabhits.

As Ottomans, grabbing the Turkish minors/the rest of Greece quickly will give you a 40kish forcelimit, which should be more than enough to crush the Timmies (especially since Mameluks will be fighting them too) and at least fend off the GH long enough for Hungary/Austria/Bohemia to start helping you out.

 

[unmerged(297342)]

Sometimes there's just no option but to pay tribute. Get off with 1 ducat / month as Muscowy, then come back 40 years later as Russia when they're collapsing.

 

[Abnormalmind]

Sometimes there's just no option but to pay tribute. Get off with 1 ducat / month as Muscowy, then come back 40 years later as Russia when they're collapsing.

Odd, in the 30 Mar patch, I played Muscowy and GH never accepted any tribute I offered. Never. Not even after GH has overrun all of my provinces.

As a matter of fact, the first 7 wars ended in white peace and the 8th war ended with GH's annihilation.

 

[unmerged(76560)]

The opening was always also a question of luck in EU, but now to make a "more dynamic" (eeek i hate this demagogic language) game, it's really the lottery :
Second try as ottoman after the patch : timurids, golden horde and kara qoyum on the back from start, plus after a few weeks spain, aragon, sicily, provence and naples declaring war... which brings half of europa in it after a few more days...
Third try : moldavia and georgia accept peace before to be eaten, and everyone goes on the timurids : i annexe all what's around me (except moldavia and geogia of course, to make a safety temporary fence against the hordes).
That how i feel about the new hordes system : it's about luck, as there's nothing you can do to influence it with your brain.
Every countries need a minimum of space to breath at start, even the bigger ones. So if everyone is going on your back as soon as the game starts, and especially hordes with virtually unlimited manpower and no diplomatic option, of course, whatever the potential of your country, you will certainly fall apart. It has always been in EU, but now it's getting too silly. and then if you survive you become too easily unstopable, so there should be a balance to find there, at least for the countries which are not far from the hordes at start (which means half of Europa and Asia).

Edit : oh, and the stability hits have become ridiculous too... it's LATER that we need a more challenging game, not in 1399 : most people will play one or two centuries then will feel that there's not much challenge anymore : THERE the stab hits would be useful... but hey, it's a cheap trick, so it's not really that what i call a more interesting middle-end game, it would not be enough to encourage people to play till 1821, but it would be a move in the right direction, imho

 

[Kamzel]

OK, I've just read about the history of the Golder Horde in Wikipedia and I am now completely sure that the horde mechanic is a complete misunderstanding in this case. GH was not conquering territory after 1399, and while it subjugated (demanded tribute from) Russian principalities, most of the time it was an area of internal conflict. In other words, GH in EU3 should use most of its army strength on fighting pretender and "nationalist" (Kazan, Crimea, etc.) rebels.

 

[Evie HJ]

Well, the horde mechanic didn't allow them to expand much at all initially.

Then everyone on the forums protested that the hordes were conquerors, should be able to expand, etc.

 

[Captain Gars]

Well, the horde mechanic didn't allow them to expand much at all initially.

Then everyone on the forums protested that the hordes were conquerors, should be able to expand, etc.

Exactly.

 

[unmerged(284034)]

Well, the horde mechanic didn't allow them to expand much at all initially.

Then everyone on the forums protested that the hordes were conquerors, should be able to expand, etc.

I think it's a question of balance. No one wants a static horde, as that just leads to giant Lithuania/Poland covering half the map. Yet at the same time, watching eastern europe turn beige isn't that fun either. Personally, if they just adjust the time it takes for the horde to swallow a province coupled with a nerf to the manpower and attrition bonuses the hordes get, you can colour me happy.

 

[Grubnessul]

Started a byz game and have reconquered most of my cores by 1457. All in all, it seems that their provinces have been nerfed a bit, I remember them to be much stronger.

Also, Westernisation has been nerfed as your Latin neighbour needs to be at least 20 levels ahead.

 

[nOxr]

OK, I've just read about the history of the Golder Horde in Wikipedia and I am now completely sure that the horde mechanic is a complete misunderstanding in this case. GH was not conquering territory after 1399, and while it subjugated (demanded tribute from) Russian principalities, most of the time it was an area of internal conflict. In other words, GH in EU3 should use most of its army strength on fighting pretender and "nationalist" (Kazan, Crimea, etc.) rebels.

The game shouldn't mirror historical facts, it should mirror the mechanics behind the historical outcomes. In the case of GH they should often desintegrate into smaller hordes after a series of severe succession crisises and weak Khans, but sometimes with a great Khan and luck they should be able to overrun eastern europe. So I think one solution could be to scale the succession crisis with number of provinces, making it much harder to keep a large horde together, and also let the stats of the Khan and the heir affect the succession crisis. To stop Poland or Bohemia to gobble up a GH in chaos I think that colonization of steppe provinces should be a losing affair and that only countries that have a strategic value of the provinces and a determined plan to take contol of them actually pursuit colonization.

 

[fc gog]

there is nothing wrong with the hordes. they start losing when it gets near to the 1500 anyway

 

[mlepkows]

Reading this thread, i've just started a game as ottoman in 1399 with this patch, and got immediatly taken in sandwish between timurids and golden horde before i could even build a few more armies. i've lost a lot of territories both in Europe and in Asia, my two vassals (as they don't even have to pay in victory points the territories they annex), and i know that they will attack me every 5 years like that with multiple stacks of 25-30k armies... i don't know, i just don't find it very motivating...

I got to 1525 with Ottomans (hard difficulty) and while it was challenging it wasn't impossible at any point. Keep 2 or so large armies (20+), mint to pay them (I got to 17 inflation before it started to fall) and trash invaders hard. After a while hordes will ask for tribute/prestige and europeans will tire and white peace out. It's going to be a rough century but at last EU3 is challenging for major countries. Following centuries are not going to be easier, mind you, because due to all the minting and underdevelopment, western europe is a good few tech levels ahead.

I'm lovin' it

Maciek

 

[unmerged(76560)]

there is nothing wrong with the hordes. they start losing when it gets near to the 1500 anyway

I got to 1525 with Ottomans (hard difficulty) and while it was challenging it wasn't impossible at any point. Keep 2 or so large armies (20+), mint to pay them (I got to 17 inflation before it started to fall) and trash invaders hard. After a while hordes will ask for tribute/prestige and europeans will tire and white peace out. It's going to be a rough century but at last EU3 is challenging for major countries. Following centuries are not going to be easier, mind you, because due to all the minting and underdevelopment, western europe is a good few tech levels ahead.

I'm lovin' it

Maciek

My point was to describe the situation when the game starts. Everyone is able to survive and become a superpower once correctly launched, but the start of the game is now more random and difficult, when it's the middle-late game which should be made more challenging to encourage people to play until the end of the scenario.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Exactly.

I think it's a question of balance. No one wants a static horde, as that just leads to giant Lithuania/Poland covering half the map. Yet at the same time, watching eastern europe turn beige isn't that fun either. Personally, if they just adjust the time it takes for the horde to swallow a province coupled with a nerf to the manpower and attrition bonuses the hordes get, you can colour me happy.

Yup, it's all to do with balance. The mechanism is fundamentally sound, but the Russians need to be stronger and it needs to be easier to take land from the hordes.

 

[Blastaz]

I tried a Timmies to Mughal game.

My first observation is that the hordes really need some new units after land 4. Not OP ones like they have at the start, but just slightly updated ones, maybe give them the default muslim ones as they progress. I'm going to have to go for Muslim modernisation just to avoid getting my armies wiped out in a decade or two. And that will set back westernising by 80 years or so. This isn't such a problem for the mughals but is for everyone else because...

The hordes also need an easier way to stop being hordes. Obviously the Timmies have it with the Mughal decision which also makes you Muslim tech. But for everyone else you need to be gov 10 to change govt. Problem is you need to westernise to ever get to gov 10. But to reach the slider position to westernise you get about 10 RR from policy limitations. So you need to westernise to change govt, but you need to change govt to westernise, it's a nasty trap. Gov 4 or maybe 5 to change govt would probably be easier, lvl 5 tech would also mean that you started seeing the AI hordes convert come 1500 or so. So they would make early gains then 'settle down' they would then be held back by low tech and bad troops and people could start conquering them organically with BB rather than seeing Bohemia colonise it all infamy free because it is the only state with the money to do so.

My other observation is that the most anoying thing about the hordes is not the threat they pose but the constant wars. Sure you can go and assault one province then either conceded defeat or demand it, but repeating that every 5 years is a bit dull. The only way to stop the DoW spam is to go and colonise them out of existence. I almost feel obliged to go out and colonise the whole of the steppes just to stop the spam! Hordes paying tributes should continue paying rather than imediatly breaking them in the same way that normal countries continue paying the hordes. They really shouldn't dow every 5 years when they are in no position to win, sure if you are in serious trouble they should dow you, but not when you are easily able to beat them down. Equally if all the central asian khanates stoped being hordes eventually i wouldn't feel this need to eradicate them.

Still hoping for Scotland style buffs for Russia, although they have done better in this game so far, maybe because of all the stab hits to the GH, maybe because of random luck.

 

[Nefaro]

Is there an easy way to shut off the increased amount of random events? The constant bad events are driving things straight into the outhouse near game start, and if they also happen to AI nations things will likely get economically fugly quick.

So.. is it as easy as commenting out a couple lines?

 

[SuiciSpai]

Started a byz game and have reconquered most of my cores by 1457. All in all, it seems that their provinces have been nerfed a bit, I remember them to be much stronger.

Also, Westernisation has been nerfed as your Latin neighbour needs to be at least 20 levels ahead.

The tooltip is wrong. your Latin neighbour needs to be level 20 on any tech,at least in my last game with lithuania 5.1