Beta of 1.3 - 17th March 2011 - Discussion Thread

[quetzilla]

Has the bug whereby primary culture bureaucrats would never appear in colonies (thus meaning some colonies could never be promoted to states) been fixed? I'm aware that there was a Bureaucrat Assimilator Tool made some time ago, but I'm unsure as to whether or not it'll be necessary after the forthcoming patch. For what it's worth, I'd be very grateful if somebody could explain how to remedy the bug in 1.2 saved games (I know you can edit demote_migrants to no in bureaucrats.txt, but that only works for new games, and the aforementioned tool doesn't work for 1.2).

Yes, this is solved in 1.3. You will still need to get some primary culture pops to the state to start with, after which there will be assimilation towards the primary culture bureaucrats. You do need to keep an eye on it though as you can often end up with your bureaucrats demoting out of existence.

 

[Avindian]

Bureaucrat promotion is heavily dependant on literacy. This could be the reason for the difference in bureaucrat promotion. I can confirm that you can definately make colonies become states using a few national foci. In my US game all of Korea has become states.

Speaking for myself, my problem was assimilation -- PR had 7% bureaucrats, but none of them Yankee.

 

[Alerias]

Yes, this is solved in 1.3. You will still need to get some primary culture pops to the state to start with, after which there will be assimilation towards the primary culture bureaucrats. You do need to keep an eye on it though as you can often end up with your bureaucrats demoting out of existence.

As I said earlier in the thread, I had extreme difficulty converting colonies into states myself. I was plagued with both a low bureaucrat population but more importantly by a total lack of natural immigration to my colonies.

The former was fixable with the right NF, and also made sense given the relatively low literacy of the OE, I think. But the latter really didnt seem WAD, despite researching techs to promote colonial migration, I just didnt have any Turks going to the colonies, although plenty were leaving for overseas. IMO "Immigration focus" should work without "overseas" restrictions at the very least to let a player help create the conditions for continuous territory to become same-state. Theres no reason Siberia couldnt eventually become a Russian state, or Lebanon a Ottoman state...

BTW. I have read several posts here and there that there seams to be some kind of problem with migration. Does anybody encountered anything fishy about it? Could you please describe what happens?

I don't want to be to specific about it. If you have noticed some kind of problem please write it here. Do not search for it though as searching could trigger some kind of nocebo effect. We want to fix the problem but don't want any misleading clues.

I think the problem I experienced, compared to my 1.2 playthroughs of the OE which had healthy interior colonial migration, might be another effect of the RGO changes. Since RGOs are now firing their workers more often, there is higher unemployement, which affects desirability of immigration alot. And since unlike states, colonies never have industries and are wholly dependent on RGOs... migrants prefer to leave the country to an unreasonable degree? Just an educated guess.

As for the other big problem others reported, namely that there seems to be a "population leak" where many emigrants during mass migrations end up disappearing instead of settling elsewhere, I *think* Ive seen it in game, but I really have no clue about the possible causes.

 

[quetzilla]

Speaking for myself, my problem was assimilation -- PR had 7% bureaucrats, but none of them Yankee.

In 1.2 Primary Culture pops could assimilate to other cultures - in 1.3 primary culture pops never assimilate to anything else, so as long as you can manage to get some primary culture bureuacrats to your colony and then get that number to 1% via NFs, you won't have the problems you had in 1.2.

 

[Mammoet]

The trick is to get some (even one would do) primary culture pops to your colony. The other culture pops are then able to assimilate to your primary culture. However the migration to the colonies sometimes doesnt happen as stated before.

In my Oranje game I had taken some land in the west indies and a few provinces in india. I wasn't able to get any primary culture pops to either of those colonies so far. And there are pops migrating away from the west indies towards my india provinces (both colonies). Probably because of unemployment of RGO pops.

I must say the economy really does work great. One thing I'd realy like to see is the reduction of the industrial score. For the GP's the industrial score is most of the time at least 10 times more then their militairy/prestige. So I think decreasing it by a factor 10 would help

 

[Avindian]

The trick is to get some (even one would do) primary culture pops to your colony. The other culture pops are then able to assimilate to your primary culture. However the migration to the colonies sometimes doesnt happen as stated before.

In my Oranje game I had taken some land in the west indies and a few provinces in india. I wasn't able to get any primary culture pops to either of those colonies so far. And there are pops migrating away from the west indies towards my india provinces (both colonies). Probably because of unemployment of RGO pops.

I must say the economy really does work great. One thing I'd realy like to see is the reduction of the industrial score. For the GP's the industrial score is most of the time at least 10 times more then their militairy/prestige. So I think decreasing it by a factor 10 would help

Yeah, that was my experience -- I even tried a migration NF to get some Yankees to move to PR, but no dice. Not a huge deal as far things go.

Agree with you 100% on the economy!

 

[No idea]

As I said earlier in the thread, I had extreme difficulty converting colonies into states myself. I was plagued with both a low bureaucrat population but more importantly by a total lack of natural immigration to my colonies.

The former was fixable with the right NF, and also made sense given the relatively low literacy of the OE, I think. But the latter really didnt seem WAD, despite researching techs to promote colonial migration, I just didnt have any Turks going to the colonies, although plenty were leaving for overseas. IMO "Immigration focus" should work without "overseas" restrictions at the very least to let a player help create the conditions for continuous territory to become same-state. Theres no reason Siberia couldnt eventually become a Russian state, or Lebanon a Ottoman state...

The very same happened to me in my last game as Spain (using 11th march patch). Even when I left for more than 5 years a NF in Luzon to promote immigration, my Spanish population increased by a mere 2%. I had a total of 12% Spanish population, so, as things were going, I decided not to make Luzon transform into a state, because it could take forever at that rate. Basically, I think the immigration NF gave me almost nothing.

 

[Mammoet]

If you have 12% Spanish population you have more then enought to get the 1% burocrats you need! I will even try to do it when I have as few as 3% of my primary culture. Just put your focus on burocrats there and you should be getting the 1% soon enough

I agree there is some weirdness going on with migration.

 

[Alyosha]

The former was fixable with the right NF, and also made sense given the relatively low literacy of the OE, I think. But the latter really didnt seem WAD, despite researching techs to promote colonial migration, I just didnt have any Turks going to the colonies, although plenty were leaving for overseas. IMO "Immigration focus" should work without "overseas" restrictions at the very least to let a player help create the conditions for continuous territory to become same-state. Theres no reason Siberia couldnt eventually become a Russian state, or Lebanon a Ottoman state...

A country-specific solution for that problem would be to give the Ottoman's Mashriqi as an accepted culture. It could then transform its core provinces in the Levant to states if captured from Egypt.

 

[Balesir]

Thoughts on Migration

Reading through what some have written on migration, here (I have not seen it myself, being busy with other things), some thoughts occur to me:

RGO workers are laid off according to the demand for what they produce; I assume this is global demand?

This will hit very hard in areas where RGO technology is low. In actual practice, inefficient farmers stay put (mostly) because the food they produce is almost all consumed locally. It's a circle - they export little, so they have little money, so they import little - but they are mostly self-sufficient. If they get laid off because the rest of the world is overproducing food (as their farming technology improves), they will just start to starve, even though they have farms - and the survivors may well migrate as a result.

I think, perhaps, that the 'demand' used to set the employment levels (and this could apply for both RGOs and factories, actually) should be the "amount sold last day" for that specific RGO/factory (and the level should be set slightly above the demand, so that high demand will cause escalating employment -> production)..

 

[quetzilla]

Thoughts on Migration
I think, perhaps, that the 'demand' used to set the employment levels (and this could apply for both RGOs and factories, actually) should be the "amount sold last day" for that specific RGO/factory (and the level should be set slightly above the demand, so that high demand will cause escalating employment -> production)..

They tried this last patch for factories and it did not go so well.

 

[unmerged(88249)]

As I said earlier in the thread, I had extreme difficulty converting colonies into states myself. I was plagued with both a low bureaucrat population but more importantly by a total lack of natural immigration to my colonies.

The former was fixable with the right NF, and also made sense given the relatively low literacy of the OE, I think. But the latter really didnt seem WAD, despite researching techs to promote colonial migration, I just didnt have any Turks going to the colonies, although plenty were leaving for overseas. IMO "Immigration focus" should work without "overseas" restrictions at the very least to let a player help create the conditions for continuous territory to become same-state. Theres no reason Siberia couldnt eventually become a Russian state, or Lebanon a Ottoman state...

I have the same problem. I'm playing as Chile, and I annexed Korea over 5 years ago. Not one single South Andean has appeared in any Korean state, nor has any Korean appeared in Chile (curiously, roughly 2,000 Korean farmers have appeared in Hawaii, which I had also annexed, but there is not a single South Andean there, either). There is also massive unemployment in Korea right now, and it'd be really handy if they showed up in Chile to work in my factories, as the immigration I benefited from at the start of the game has slowed to a trickle. I'm by no means an expert on Victoria II, though, so I don't know if what I'm experiencing is normal or not. Is it normal that no South Andeans are showing up in Korea (and vice versa)?

 

[unmerged(138733)]

Any idea when will the official 1.3 patch come out. I don't play betas and I am still waiting for the real 1.3 to start playing V2 again and believe me it has been a long wait.

 

[Mammoet]

Thoughts on Migration

Reading through what some have written on migration, here (I have not seen it myself, being busy with other things), some thoughts occur to me:

RGO workers are laid off according to the demand for what they produce; I assume this is global demand?

This will hit very hard in areas where RGO technology is low. In actual practice, inefficient farmers stay put (mostly) because the food they produce is almost all consumed locally. It's a circle - they export little, so they have little money, so they import little - but they are mostly self-sufficient. If they get laid off because the rest of the world is overproducing food (as their farming technology improves), they will just start to starve, even though they have farms - and the survivors may well migrate as a result.

I think, perhaps, that the 'demand' used to set the employment levels (and this could apply for both RGOs and factories, actually) should be the "amount sold last day" for that specific RGO/factory (and the level should be set slightly above the demand, so that high demand will cause escalating employment -> production)..

I think the problem is more that they get fired, because the technology increases the output (and the demand staying the same). Especially in colonies this is a problem as they have no other job to go for at that moment, in states they can become craftsman.

 

[dnwint2]

There is a bug with rebellions in this beta. While playing as Serbia, I twice got a pop-up notification that Yugoslav Pan-Nationalists had risen up in rebellion, but when I looked at my country on the map, there were no rebels whatsoever. This occurred at fairly low militancy.

On the other hand, in my Moldova game, I maintained consciousness at 10 and militancy > 9 for years and years and no rebellion happened, despite the fact that all my brigades belonged to rebel POPs. The population of Moldova, however, fell from 360K to 200K, despite the presence of very profitable factories.

This brings me to the second problem. From what I could see, by 1890 in my Serbian game, the only nations to have appreciably increased in population were the USA (4m -> 15m), Ecuador (250K -> 1.5m), France (11m -> 15m) and Columbia (400K -> ~700K). French growth might be attributable to their conquest of North Africa, etc. However, on the whole global population growth was probably 10-15%. IRL it was closer to 50% during this period (based on a couple of general web sources) even including Europe (check out http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/population) in spite of massive European emigration to the Americas and to colonies in general. This needs to be fixed, as population growth is the engine of 19th and early 20th century industrialization

 

[unmerged(252359)]

I've been keeping up to date on these threads and it seems like giving all the production to the prestige leader and then letting the next get what's left and so on isn't really working and a lot of problems are stemming from it. Why not have a "trickle-down" system?

Say, prestige rank 1 gets a crack at 50% of the global production. Rank 2, 50% of what's left, and so on until you get to the last guy who can grab whatever is left. They'd need a strict ranking system with tie breakers for nations with the same amount of prestige (probably total score and, if that's the same, population which should never be the same).

That way you'd never really be stuck with 0 lumber to build naval bases, 0 liquor to build guards, and 0 artillery to build, well, artillery. You just might be getting so little of those resources it takes awhile.

 

[Denniss]

Any idea when will the official 1.3 patch come out. I don't play betas and I am still waiting for the real 1.3 to start playing V2 again and believe me it has been a long wait.

Play 1.2 with mods - 1.3 needs some more betas to iron out several bugs and balance gameplay.

 

[Nelson007]

I have some suggestions

1.VIC2 need diplomacy options to exchange technologys money batleships and provinces
2.change the war goal mode so players can just set one city as the goal of war but not the whole big area
3.a button for enable/disable all factories' allowance

 

[dnwint2]

I've been keeping up to date on these threads and it seems like giving all the production to the prestige leader and then letting the next get what's left and so on isn't really working and a lot of problems are stemming from it. Why not have a "trickle-down" system?

Say, prestige rank 1 gets a crack at 50% of the global production. Rank 2, 50% of what's left, and so on until you get to the last guy who can grab whatever is left. They'd need a strict ranking system with tie breakers for nations with the same amount of prestige (probably total score and, if that's the same, population which should never be the same).

That way you'd never really be stuck with 0 lumber to build naval bases, 0 liquor to build guards, and 0 artillery to build, well, artillery. You just might be getting so little of those resources it takes awhile.

That is the best darn Idea I have seen in a while. It could be easily done with a recursive algorithm. Pdox please take note.

 

[quetzilla]

That is the best darn Idea I have seen in a while. It could be easily done with a recursive algorithm. Pdox please take note.

That idea was already proposed (by me) and discussed thoroughly in either this thread or the previous thread, and it doesn't work like you think it does. There's a significant amount of extra calculation involved with this kind of method, and several other complications that make things even worse. Scarcity of resources in the game is intentional. If need a particular resource, go grab it. That's what they did in real life.