Beta 28/4 - Plague and moving Capital

[ambrox62]

During the year 1349 my Portugal-Spanish realm suffered plague.
It appears at Cadiz, then moved through Spain from south to north.
My capital moves following the spread, from Cadiz to Sevilla, Granada, Badajoz, Toledo, then returning to Algeciras when plague arrive at Toledo and plague-effect has ceased in Algeciras in the meantime.
So, inside my court, I don't suffer any losses for plague.

This is a-historycal, this is bad for game-purpose.

The capital of a Realm/Duchy must remains in a province for ever, or at least for a couple of years (20-50?), and not continuosly migrating towards the richest province.

I am right?

 

[Nikolai II]

During the year 1349 my Portugal-Spanish realm suffered plague.
It appears at Cadiz, then moved through Spain from south to north.
My capital moves following the spread, from Cadiz to Sevilla, Granada, Badajoz, Toledo, then returning to Algeciras when plague arrive at Toledo and plague-effect has ceased in Algeciras in the meantime.
So, inside my court, I don't suffer any losses for plague.

This is a-historycal, this is bad for game-purpose.

The capital of a Realm/Duchy must remains in a province for ever, or at least for a couple of years (20-50?), and not continuosly migrating towards the richest province.

I am right?

I dunno.. if you were rich and had plenty of areas to choose from you would run away from the plague? Sounds fairly sensible?

 

[ambrox62]

Ok, a court can move itself during summer or winter periods, but not every 1st day of each month !!!.
In this manner, because in 1300 few human-player are counts (mostly kings or dukes), all plague-events never trigger and, for me, it's bad for game-purpose.

 

[Martinus]

Two things.

First of all, it's weird that you are having the court moving every month - nothing like this happens to me and I think the only time the court is supposed to move is when you load the game, or when you inherit something, or when you give away the province with your court to your vassals. So this might be a bug, or at least non-WAD.

Secondly, the concept of rex ambulans was pretty common in middle ages, so even if this was a WAD, there would be nothing particular bad about it.

 

[ambrox62]

First point.
Which are the rules that establish the realm's capital? I don't know.
My ruler is King of Portugal as first title, but he don't control any land in Portugal area. So capital is continuosly moving around the south-Spain, following and escaping from game-events like revolt, various form of game-plague, ecc., towards the richest province at moment in the game, month by month. When he owned Braganza (Portugal), the capital was always there; when he leaves Braganza to a new vassal, the capital start moving everywhere.
Is this the key of reading?

Second point.
I agree with you, but, like consequence, I remarke (ones again) the never-trigger plague-events

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Your capital will allways be in a province that is part of your main title. In your case Portugal, if you own several provinces in Portugal it will be in the richest. When you don't hold any land in your demense that is part of your main title, the capital moves to the richest provinces of your demesne.

Since the riches of provinces fluctuates the capital will move.

But it is strange that it happens monthly, I only have seen it on restart or when I give away my richest province or gain a province in the land of my main title

 

[ambrox62]

In my case it moves during the same game-session, not EXACTLY EVERY month, but EVERY 1st day of the month following an event (like revolt, prosperity shifts, pox, colera, ecc...) that changes the richest province

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Its based solely on the province's modified income, which is why things are so screwy. I think it might be somewhat hard to change this to ignore certain conditions, such as plagues, thieve's guilds, etc. that lower the value, but imo it would be worth it (since historically i can't think of a king or duke that changed his capitcal when a thieve's guild moved in). Or perhaps the capital should be made to only change yearly.

Other than that, would be to modifiy the plague events so they can occur to your court if its in any demesne, though probably not so likely as the capital.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Ambrox62, I would rather say your king was lucky, when the plague ended in Algericas before it arrived to Toledo. It often happens that the whole demesne of even a king suffers the plague at the same time, even for extended periods of time, so in situations like that, retreating to country estates won't work.

EDIT: And Jinnai, bad idea. Let's imagine I'm king of France with Paris and a province in Crimea. My province in Crimea contracts the plague and suddenly all my courtiers get the bright idea to routinely visit Crimea, just to contract the plague... :wacko:

 

[unmerged(2456)]

EDIT: And Jinnai, bad idea. Let's imagine I'm king of France with Paris and a province in Crimea. My province in Crimea contracts the plague and suddenly all my courtiers get the bright idea to routinely visit Crimea, just to contract the plague... :wacko:

And the current situation is good how?? Atleast this wouldn't make kings and dukes with multiple demesne immune unlike counts. Certainly they have better care and facilities, but not to the nth degree, especially compared to lower tier nobles represented in-game here.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

And the current situation is good how?? Atleast this wouldn't make kings and dukes with multiple demesne immune unlike counts. Certainly they have better care and facilities, but not to the nth degree, especially compared to lower tier nobles represented in-game here.

Well, for one, what you suggest is clearly worse for CPU than how it is now. For other, multiple demesne rulers aren't immune, they just have the chance to be lucky and escape it. You aren't always lucky like that or would you say it's really common that a multiple province ruler can avoid the plague, because it's gone from some of his provinces before it reaches all others?

 

[Erufailon]

O, it was just the way. Even centuries later whole parliaments moved because of situations like this, and besides if I were the King and the plague would show up on my doorstep, I would pack, and move. Don't change it. IMHO.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well, for one, what you suggest is clearly worse for CPU than how it is now. For other, multiple demesne rulers aren't immune, they just have the chance to be lucky and escape it. You aren't always lucky like that or would you say it's really common that a multiple province ruler can avoid the plague, because it's gone from some of his provinces before it reaches all others?

Yes if they have 3+ demense provinces they're likely to avoid it. 4+ and it becomes a virtual certainity. As i said for these 3 tiers of nobility the facilities to avoid/respond to plagues was almost the same.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Yes if they have 3+ demense provinces they're likely to avoid it. 4+ and it becomes a virtual certainity. As i said for these 3 tiers of nobility the facilities to avoid/respond to plagues was almost the same.

Well, my experiences with 1337 scenario and the MTTHs of plague ending events compared to plague spreading events would suggest otherwise.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Mine don't though, atleast when i've played in 1066 or 1187. I don't play much in 1337, but i doubt the startdate matters.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Sure the start date matters (unless you're playing full games starting from eariler dates) since the bulk of the plague events are scripted to occur in the 14th century.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Capitals should be fixed and should never change unless the land is given away by the player or a "move capital" event occurs and the player has the choice of whether to move his capital to the most wealthy province in the realm.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Sure the start date matters (unless you're playing full games starting from eariler dates) since the bulk of the plague events are scripted to occur in the 14th century.

Well then my point stands atleast for 2 of the 3 scenrios.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Sure....but making the events check any_demesne_province instead of the demesne capital would be a very serious increase on CPU load because the trigger would not filter out enough instances of the any_csc check. The official PI stance on the use of any_csc conditions in events is to avoid it at all costs for official release purposes; and that any use of it must be demonstrably low-load in prior exclusions. Modders may, as usual, do as they please (and as their systems can support).

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Sure....but making the events check any_demesne_province instead of the demesne capital would be a very serious increase on CPU load because the trigger would not filter out enough instances of the any_csc check. The official PI stance on the use of any_csc conditions in events is to avoid it at all costs for official release purposes; and that any use of it must be demonstrably low-load in prior exclusions. Modders may, as usual, do as they please (and as their systems can support).

And in the offical release it again gives massive favoring to kings and even some to dukes where none in this case should be given. They weren't so far better off that they could have their entire court avoid plauges 90%+ of the time as they do now.

Personally it would be best if capitals were changed to move yearly rather than monthly, but that requires time from Johan, something more limited than editing scirpts or setup files.