Best way to take over the Aztecs or Inca without crashing your economy

[Gihren Zabi]

What's the best way to absorb some of the super gold producing countries without destroying your economy? I'm playing as a united Scandinavia and want to take them before the Spanish get there. Spain absorbed Portugal and England and France got busy, so we're the only colonial powers out there. Though the AI seems terrible at fighting overseas campaigns, so I'm not too worried.

Is vassalizing them ever a good idea? I like the idea of not having to pay admin points to core everything.

 

[S0ny B1ack]

I vassalised the Aztecs through war and diplo annexed them later in my game and it turned out that the inlation reduction from the economic ideas provided just enough reduction that I could still sit on 0 inflation even with the gold provinces, though I also had a quite big trade income so those gold provinces weren't to much of my income (so at least in my case getting trade everywhere up (since you can easily dominate the mexico node with annexed Aztecs I guess it shouldn't be to hard to get a high trade income) and having economic ideas was enough)

 

[Stategem161803]

I vassalised the Aztecs through war and diplo annexed them later in my game and it turned out that the inlation reduction from the economic ideas provided just enough reduction that I could still sit on 0 inflation even with the gold provinces, though I also had a quite big trade income so those gold provinces weren't to much of my income (so at least in my case getting trade everywhere up (since you can easily dominate the mexico node with annexed Aztecs I guess it shouldn't be to hard to get a high trade income) and having economic ideas was enough)

The Americas are waaaay overrated. Conquer Timbuktu, then steer trade from Asia into Timbuktu and collect there. You do have to conquer a lot of territory though. You will make much more money in Asia.

The name of the game is India, China, manufactories, and light ships.

 

[S0ny B1ack]

The Americas are waaaay overrated. Conquer Timbuktu, then steer trade from Asia into Timbuktu and collect there. You do have to conquer a lot of territory though. You will make much more money in Asia.

The name of the game is India, China, manufactories, and light ships.

This:

Spoiler

generates quite a lot of trade income while collecting in mexico, the caribean and in the mississippi node

And I idn't even want to take north america (I wanted only some colonies in the carribean), but it somehow got out of control
So as i said taking everything there wasn't really planned by me, but in the end it is still true that those trade incomes made enough money to reduce the gold inflation to nothing....

 

[El Jojo]

Inflation is not that bad, you'll get more inflation by ransoming them than by having them under your control. Economy ideagroup should be enough, or you play a very innovative nation and have enough spare admin points to cool the inflation now and then.
Vassalizing works well but you have to realize that diploannexing overseas vassals takes much more time and requires some bonuses (either from an advisor or ideagroups).

 

[unmerged(184583)]

The Americas are waaaay overrated. Conquer Timbuktu, then steer trade from Asia into Timbuktu and collect there. You do have to conquer a lot of territory though. You will make much more money in Asia.

The name of the game is India, China, manufactories, and light ships.

Wrong. Vassalize aztecs, it is easy to do in 1 war, 10 years later you are cored and mass producing gold. Plus you get to convert all the pagans. If you own all of the caribbean, panama and other chunks of the america's you will probably be double the income of any other nation. I can show you charts and graphs if you'd like.

You can actually generate more trade income in the caribbean alone than damn near all of europe combined. My current game as portugal year ~1620 the caribbean generates almost 50 ducats of gold every month (99% trade power, own all provinces, ships ect. only thing dragging me down is foreign merchants). That is more than almost every nations entire income, save the few other top powers in 2nd -5th.



I'm swimming in gold so much I already have plantations, trade companies, and post office just about everywhere. Not to mention all the military buildings and other random buildings I spam just because I don't even know what to do with it all. You might have noticed my max manpower is higher than spains.

not to mention you can do all of that and still get india and china. That game I own all of the centers of trade in india as well, just don't have enough merchants keep a continuous stream going and keep the caribbean yet... will soon though.

 

[S0ny B1ack]

Inflation is not that bad, you'll get more inflation by ransoming them than by having them under your control. Economy ideagroup should be enough, or you play a very innovative nation and have enough spare admin points to cool the inflation now and then.
Vassalizing works well but you have to realize that diploannexing overseas vassals takes much more time and requires some bonuses (either from an advisor or ideagroups).

It is not to hard to diplo annex them - i only needed to improve relations... The modifiers before i annexed them were +50 for beeing my vassal, +200 from improved relations, -10 for religion and another -15 or -25, I don't remember exactly. So Improving relations was enouth to ge them ove the required 190 relation. It might take some time, but it wasn't to bad TBH...

 

[lordelenath]

He's not talking about the opinion modifiers but the -0.50 / month which you get for annexing overseas vassals. It's entirely possible the annexation progress will keep one of your diplomats chained for decades, if you don't have some bonuses to diplomatic reputation.

Since these provinces don't give OE anymore I tend to prefer the annexation. They're not that expensive.

 

[S0ny B1ack]

He's not talking about the opinion modifiers but the -0.50 / month which you get for annexing overseas vassals. It's entirely possible the annexation progress will keep one of your diplomats chained for decades, if you don't have some bonuses to diplomatic reputation.

Since these provinces don't give OE anymore I tend to prefer the annexation. They're not that expensive.

Oh, pardon, I misunderstood him
It is true that I did have diplomatic and expansion ideas which both provide a bonus to diplo reputation as well...

 

[unmerged(184583)]

He's not talking about the opinion modifiers but the -0.50 / month which you get for annexing overseas vassals. It's entirely possible the annexation progress will keep one of your diplomats chained for decades, if you don't have some bonuses to diplomatic reputation.

Since these provinces don't give OE anymore I tend to prefer the annexation. They're not that expensive.

This is true. Generally speaking though, as Portugal I have at least 4 diplomats (embasy, nearly permanent curia controller) 99% of the time 2-3 of them are being wasted anyways. You'll be rich enough as displayed in my previous post, just hire the best statesman you can get, keep legitimacy high. Its easy, and you'll save yourself at least 1000 adm points.

You don't even need economic ideas for the inflation if you are rich enough from other stuff. my above ss, inflation is lowering only using a master of mint and the gold standard decision. Its really not a problem.

 

[RobRoy3]

Vassalize aztecs, it is easy to do in 1 war, 10 years later you are cored and mass producing gold.

Well, I like to vassalize Aztecs, too. And I do think it's worthwhile. But it's not a slam dunk. The process is going to take longer than 10 years and is going to occupy diplomats. It's ten years just for the waiting period. The time spent trying to annex them is going to be about another ten years. And a diplomat will need to be occupied throughout (improving relations, then annexing). Then if you want to feed them territory from the Zapotec and Maya, more diplomats needed (takes forever for diplomats to return from overseas missions). You also have precious diplomatic relations slots occupied for each new world vassal throughout the process, so if you're trying to do the same thing with the Incas and/or other American tribes, you're either not going to have a lot of allies back home or you're going to be bleeding diplomatic points.

 

[unmerged(184583)]

no no no. It is a slam dunk. Sure you have to wait 10 years to even start to annex them, maybe another 5-10 to actually complete it. Is that worth more than 1000 adm points to you. Ask yourself that question.

You never break up the Aztecs. 99% of my games they absorb the zapotec and the maya, making the entire thing 1 process. After you complete that then you begin on the Incas. Forget about the other american tribes, they are in Chesapeake, a worthless trade node for Portugal. Your Portugal, you don't need allies other than Spain or maybe GB. In my particular game Burgundy remains and remains strong, Spain and Burgundy are my two allies. That is plenty. I took the naval convoy system only allowing for 3 diplomatic relations anyways, its worth it though, who the hell else am I going to ally? Nobody worth a crap, I can tell you that much.

 

[RobRoy3]

no no no. It is a slam dunk. Sure you have to wait 10 years to even start to annex them, maybe another 5-10 to actually complete it. Is that worth more than 1000 adm points to you. Ask yourself that question.

You never break up the Aztecs. 99% of my games they absorb the zapotec and the maya, making the entire thing 1 process. After you complete that then you begin on the Incas. Forget about the other american tribes, they are in Chesapeake, a worthless trade node for Portugal. Your Portugal, you don't need allies other than Spain or maybe GB. In my particular game Burgundy remains and remains strong, Spain and Burgundy are my two allies. That is plenty. I took the naval convoy system only allowing for 3 diplomatic relations anyways, its worth it though, who the hell else am I going to ally? Nobody worth a crap, I can tell you that much.

Not sure if we're playing the same version, or maybe it's just varies that much by nation/size? For the countries I've been playing, it's less than 500 adm points to core all of Central America. That's assuming the consolidation you're reporting in your games. In mine, however, I see that consolidation maybe 1/3 games, by the time I'm in a position to conquer or vassalize the Aztecs. Granted, I'm generally trying to get over there as quickly as possible because I'm NOT necessarily playing Portugal (nor was the original poster).

The real reason to vassalize, IMHO, is because you are often in a position to do that before you are in a position to core them. Like I said, it's going to depend on your situation a lot more, if you have the option to core them using admin points, especially if they haven't taken over the Zapotec or Maya. No one like "wasting" admin points. But most people don't like having diplomats or dip relations slots occupied for decades, either. My experience is generally closer to another ten years for the annexation; my fastest was about seven years when I had a 6 dip king and three different relations boosts. Later in the game, things might be quicker if you have more boosts to trust and diplomatic reputation, but, again, I try to go as quickly as possible when I go the new world route.

 

[unmerged(184583)]

well tbh I just assumed it was about that much. Its usually around 40 per province iirc (I do remember for sure that is what it cost me to core Loango, in africa), I just counted 21 provinces = 840 adm points required to core it all, based on the assumption it is on avg 40 per province. I actually haven't did it in awhile because it is just so much easier to vassalize it. Like literally I can't even see an argument for annexing, it is completely one sided imo. Thats 84 plantations you could have built, and you probably have the land and money to do so if you followed some of my previous advice.

Yea it obviously depend on what you have an excess of. Most colonizers have plenty excess of diplomats though tbh. After you build an embassy and/or are curia controller if you have troubles having enough diplomats, I can't help you. I normally have 2-3 of them sitting doing nothing tbh.

I can't even imagine what in the world you could need more than 1-2 diplomats in europe for as a colonial power. I switch between improving relations with my allies (only occupies 1) and the rest pretty much sit there doing nothing for the large majority of the game, minus a month or two here and there for military access, RM, and the like.

 

[lordelenath]

I guess it depends on your play-style. If you're doing a pure colonization game you should probably vassalize them since you won't need either diplo relations or diplomats that much. Since I loath colonization and find it utterly boring I never play like that. Combined with my primary means of expansion being vassal release and core return, I'm almost always above the diplo relations limit and prefer to simply annex Pagans. Since I'm rarely coring anything I can spare the ADM points too - and since you don't get OE you can wait a bit if needed.

 

[RobRoy3]

well tbh I just assumed it was about that much. Its usually around 40 per province iirc (I do remember for sure that is what it cost me to core Loango, in africa), I just counted 21 provinces = 840 adm points required to core it all, based on the assumption it is on avg 40 per province. I actually haven't did it in awhile because it is just so much easier to vassalize it. Like literally I can't even see an argument for annexing, it is completely one sided imo. Thats 84 plantations you could have built, and you probably have the land and money to do so if you followed some of my previous advice.

Yea it obviously depend on what you have an excess of. Most colonizers have plenty excess of diplomats though tbh. After you build an embassy and/or are curia controller if you have troubles having enough diplomats, I can't help you. I normally have 2-3 of them sitting doing nothing tbh.

I can't even imagine what in the world you could need more than 1-2 diplomats in europe for. I switch between improving relations with my allies (only occupies 1) and the rest pretty much sit there doing nothing for the large majority of the game, minus a month or two here and there for military access, RM, and the like.

Guess we have different playstyles. I can't even imagine having an idle diplomat. There are always relations to be improved, claims to fabricate, the next vassal to target... Those slots are absolutely precious to me, and the diplomats only slightly less so. I suppose if you always play a nation like Portugal and ignore Europe completely, you might have less of a need for them, but I'm not sure a United Scandinavia has diplomats and relations slots to tie up for decades (I rarely do no matter who I'm playing).

As for the argument to conquer, rather than vassalize. I remind you that I prefer vassalization, too, I simply can see situations where conquest/coring would work as well or better. You're repeating admin point saving that are inflated (go check), especially if one is just targeting the gold provinces. New world provinces are cheap to core, if you're doing it right. Yes, you'd still be talking about close to 500 admin points, but only if you're talking about all of Central America. But admin points aren't the primary driver for me, when I vassalize. Time is. If I'm in a position to core the gold provinces using admin points, and that would be quicker, I would certainly do that. Admin points are also just not as precious to me as they appear to be to you. I find diplomatic points are usually my bottleneck, but maybe it's a function of which ideas we prefer or other elements of our play style.

I guess it depends on your play-style. If you're doing a pure colonization game you should probably vassalize them since you won't need either diplo relations or diplomats that much. Since I loath colonization and find it utterly boring I never play like that. Combined with my primary means of expansion being vassal release and core return, I'm almost always above the diplo relations limit and prefer to simply annex Pagans. Since I'm rarely coring anything I can spare the ADM points too - and since you don't get OE you can wait a bit if needed.

Yeah, after playing a pure colonization game a few times, it gets a little old. I don't do it exclusively anymore, either, I tend to do it in conjunction with my European ambitions.

 

[unmerged(184583)]

Guess we have different playstyles. I can't even imagine having an idle diplomat. There are always relations to be improved, claims to fabricate, the next vassal to target... Those slots are absolutely precious to me, and the diplomats only slightly less so. I suppose if you always play a nation like Portugal and ignore Europe completely, you might have less of a need for them, but I'm not sure a United Scandinavia has diplomats and relations slots to tie up for decades (I rarely do no matter who I'm playing).

As for the argument to conquer, rather than vassalize. I remind you that I prefer vassalization, too, I simply can see situations where conquest/coring would work as well or better. You're repeating admin point saving that are inflated (go check), especially if one is just targeting the gold provinces. New world provinces are cheap to core, if you're doing it right. Yes, you'd still be talking about close to 500 admin points, but only if you're talking about all of Central America. But admin points aren't the primary driver for me, when I vassalize. Time is. If I'm in a position to core the gold provinces using admin points, and that would be quicker, I would certainly do that. Admin points are also just not as precious to me as they appear to be to you. I find diplomatic points are usually my bottleneck, but maybe it's a function of which ideas we prefer or other elements of our play style.

Yeah, after playing a pure colonization game a few times, it gets a little old. I don't do it exclusively anymore, either, I tend to do it in conjunction with my European ambitions.

Then it looks like we basically agree, other than the fact we play different play styles. I do agree perhaps in a situation where diplomats were dire, i might consider it, but all monarch points are precious to me. I ALWAYS take one of each branch diplo, adm, mil, and continue to do so basically in whatever order I chose for the first 3. The order depends on who I am playing as, it results in almost never sinking points into ahead of time penalties (except maybe on mil). I almost always take innovative and get the education decisions that make tech even cheaper. Saving monarch points and spending them efficiently is damn near the basis of my entire strategy.

Waiting another 15 years to get what is basically already mine doesn't bother me much. I do make all possible accommodations to make the process go as fast as possible though, so I don't really see it as slowing me down at all. I guess maybe if I was Austria (a nation that actually has use for multiple diplomats) or something I might consider annexing them outright, but then again if I was Austria I probably wouldn't even be interested in the new world.