Best way to destroy a much stronger neighbor?

[unmerged(569711)]

I have by the grace of God managed to conquer the duchies of Aragon and Navarra. Unfortunately theres a muslim neighbor with an unpronouncible name that is also very hard to type, this emirate is SO strong that they actually spanked France, they control most of Andalusia and Barcelona.

How to I weaken them enough to take back the Duchy of Barcelona? They just keep getting stronger and stronger they just smashed Castille.

I have no idea in general how to deal with a neighbor this strong that I need to defeat

 

[Darkgamma]

Swear fealty to the HRE, I guess.
Wouldn't destroy them unless you lack some counties outside of your defacto realm but you have deiure - it would at least protect you, you don't need to defeat them.

 

[unmerged(569711)]

Nah man Im ok with my own realm but I am aiming for the Empire of Hispania, Im trying to work hard to keep France out, I just need to Conquer Barcelona and Ill have all of de jure Aragons lands and Navarra's

 

[whosthebestcop]

Wait for the Holy Orders or assassinate their ruler until a bad one comes to power then when they suffer a rebellion you war the rebellious realms.

 

[unmerged(68578)]

Most long reigning Muslims tend to brake up as the game goes on because of decadence. Even within the first 50 years it's common to start seeing these civil wars fairly often. Just pick them apart while they're fighting themselves.

 

[Flamestalker]

Most long reigning Muslims tend to brake up as the game goes on because of decadence. Even within the first 50 years it's common to start seeing these civil wars fairly often. Just pick them apart while they're fighting themselves.

Have to disagree there. I'm almost a 100 years into my current game and most Muslim rulers still have low decadence. The Almoravid, Aftasid and Hammadid dynasties have all kept there decadence below 25%. Even the Fatimids are doing well with 35%. only the Seljuks are doing bad with 72%.

 

[unmerged(68578)]

Have to disagree there. I'm almost a 100 years into my current game and most Muslim rulers still have low decadence. The Almoravid, Aftasid and Hammadid dynasties have all kept there decadence below 25%. Even the Fatimids are doing well with 35%. only the Seljuks are doing bad with 72%.

Really? Either way, there is always a chance they'll do well, but they normally don't in my experience. The Fatimids are the exception, as always. With the Fatimids, my goal early game is to take their kingdom title so they fall apart before they do something crazy. In my games, all the other Muslims eventually brake up, however. In fact, the Almoravid just went into revolt and I plan on using the situation to take the duchy of Fes and Tangir. I had taken Marrakesh in the last war.

 

[whosthebestcop]

Decadence doesn't really do anything to the AI as a player opponent. The dynasty will just switch to the new dynasty and be united.

What splits the Muslims up in 1.07 is successful faction wars. You can help this along by trying to get a bad ruler on the throne.

 

[Darkgamma]

There's really no way to wreck that thing with pure military, at the very least.

 

[Tokie]

- Ally with France or HRE by marriage.
- Swear fealty to HRE and break away when you create the Empire of Spain
- Wait for opportunity to attack your neighbors when they are at WAR, then quickly summon your troops(hire mercs if you need) and storm their land. (Note: You can use your mercs for more than 1 war, and raiding cities give you tons of gold)

 

[feastonthrones]

Its tricky especially against Muslim rulers. If you attack them the whole of Muslim spain will join their cause, and that sucks, (trust me I have just created the kingdom of Hispania and I know what fighting Muslims is like in this area). The previous points have it spot on I feel, but you don't need to swear fealty to anyone.
1. Make some advantageous marriages to places like Norway and France and England. Its easy, free and they are bound to like you more than the Muslims so they will come to your aid in most circumstances.
2. Fight the Muslims when they are in succession crisis, or they are fighting other Muslims. Personally I prefer when they are fighting other Muslims but sometimes a succession crisis means that nearby Muslim rulers join the fray too. So as long as other Muslim rulers are engaged with the struggle, pick off one of their closest territories with the help of your new found allies.
3. Blitzkrieg. Hire mercs and use your retinues to quickly directly assault the castles and then siege the towns etc. With their main force tied up in some other campaign with other Muslim allies your still going to have limited time. And the longer your campaign goes on the more chance that further away Muslims like the North African Muslims will join the battle. You have to act hard and fast. Get your allies involved as soon as you have clicked the declare war button.

I think so long as you follow these points you can be sure of victory. You have to choose your moments carefully, and as you take 1 duchy away, your success will snowball, well it did with mine.

 

[Heartsbane]

Marriage alliances with the HRE and calling them into your wars should help immensely. How recently did they conquer France and Castille? Those regions should be suffering recently conquered and different religion/culture penalties that would leave them weak and open to a few quick Holy wars. You could always wait till they are at war and scoop up a Duchy or two with Holy wars while they are occupied and be sure to spam Holy orders if they are available. Also don't bother keeping truces with Muslims, as the Christian power don't care if you act dishonorably towards them. Spam Holy Wars if you can, although you do run the risk of pissing off the Muslim world and getting a Jihad or 2. If you are actively campaigning against the Muslims the pope will throw a few hundred gold your way every now and then which will help with the upkeep costs for your mercs and Holy Orders, although the wars generally pay for themselves once you start taking cities left and right. One strategy that kind of works (I've only tired it a couple times) is to assign some of the excess land you get in Holy wars to the pope who seems to be more capable of surviving Muslim assaults when his own land is in danger than the other Christian nations. Play around and don't be afraid to reload if you get spanked by a violent Jihad. It is probably better to hit the Muslims In Iberia hard before they organize and stat eating up Spanish land. I assume it is the Dhunmunids who took Barcelona?

 

[unmerged(545031)]

For dealing with a single strong neighbor who isn't at war with you yet? Plot his death. He'll have tons of vassals, and some of them are likely to hate him. Invite everyone who contributes meaningfully to your plot power and has a thumbs up, then wait until they all agree and check again for the next crop of plotters. If you have the piety/prestige to burn, and you think he's going to declare war on you *right* *now*, then declare war on him and immediately surrender in order to get the peace treaty. Then, once the plot goes through, plot to kill his successor. Continue to do this until the powerful neighbor collapses into little squabbling kingdoms. It takes a bit of time, but all it costs you is your plot slot and some hatred from a guy who's about to take a ride in an unsafe carriage anyway. In one of my current games, I made a hobby of plotting the death fo the leader of the Fatimids. Worked beautifully.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Its tricky especially against Muslim rulers. If you attack them the whole of Muslim spain will join their cause, and that sucks, (trust me I have just created the kingdom of Hispania and I know what fighting Muslims is like in this area).

One way to avoid this is to never, ever use the Holy War casus belli unless absolutely necessary.

 

[Yellowjacket]

One way to avoid this is to never, ever use the Holy War casus belli unless absolutely necessary.

Well, that's good advice starting out, but I'd say that's a bit strict. Holy wars are great landgrabs for a small nation if your enemies are otherwise occupied. use the blitzkrieg like tactic previously mentioned, snatch your goal, and then wait until the muslims are infighting again. Otherwise stick to more modest CB's where you won't get surprised.

 

[Blond_Knight]

One way to avoid this is to never, ever use the Holy War casus belli unless absolutely necessary.

Depends. Wait for a civil war and immediately expand against rebelling vassals with Holy War. You'll have Spain in no time.

 

[feastonthrones]

I think that using normal methods of land acquisition verses the muslims is not very efficient. Holy Wars achieve the task much faster, if you use de-jure CB then the vassals you inherit are muslim and hate you and won't leave quietly leading to another, granted small conflict, but its time and troops better spent taking duchies at a time. You can conquer Spain in under a century even if you start as Aragon by spamming Holy Wars when positive circumstances arise.

 

[whosthebestcop]

I think that using normal methods of land acquisition verses the muslims is not very efficient. Holy Wars achieve the task much faster, if you use de-jure CB then the vassals you inherit are muslim and hate you and won't leave quietly leading to another, granted small conflict, but its time and troops better spent taking duchies at a time. You can conquer Spain in under a century even if you start as Aragon by spamming Holy Wars when positive circumstances arise.

If you are at Medium Crown Authority revoking heathen titles is free, that is no tyranny penalty. So using de jure CB's is actually beneficial because you avoid all of the cultural, religious, and recently conquered penalties when the Muslim is in control and you just revoke it from him.

 

[Kamuflaro]

Send your counselor to the capital to sow dissent and pray.

 

[feastonthrones]

Your not reading what I am saying. I didn't mention tyranny or the penalty associated with it. You can revoke infidel titles for free so long as they agree to it. That was my point. The only ways I have managed to avoid a rebellion by the newly acquired vassal when revoking his territory is to have my troops stationed in his country. That was my point. Also doing 1 territory at a time is going to take a lot longer, ergo not beneficial.