Best Tech School for Japan

[dmartin1982]

So I've come back to Vicky 2 after a long absence, and am having a blast playing as Japan for the first time as I shake off the dust. It's 1868, I'm fully Westernized, and a Great Power (#6). In my bid to acquire Spanish colonial possessions in the Philippines, I find myself duking it out with France, Spain, and the Netherlands. So far, my navy sinks their expeditionary forces' transports and escorts, while my armies gobble up their islands. All seems to be going well.

However, I am faced with a choice I don't quite know what to make of: whether to adopt the Military Industrial Complex, or embrace Sea Power and the Merchant Marine. I see the value for Japan in having a strong navy, and I intend to use a grand navy to fuel my ambitions to become a top three Great Power. That being said, I'm not sure the AI invests enough in naval tech or large fleets to warrant taking it. And, I have to admit, the army and industry bonuses from the Complex are tantalizing.

So I'm curious what you experienced Vicky 2 players would recommend for me here. I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance for any thoughtful responses!

(N.B. I'm playing with HoD.)

 

[AmpsterMan]

I personally like the Merchant Marine one. Japan is the Britain of Asia. As such, you want generally drive out the Europeans and assert your hegemony over Indonesia, Indochina, Korea, and the North and South Pacific. All of these require a robust navy.

 

[dmartin1982]

I personally like the Merchant Marine one. Japan is the Britain of Asia. As such, you want generally drive out the Europeans and assert your hegemony over Indonesia, Indochina, Korea, and the North and South Pacific. All of these require a robust navy.

Do you find as Japan that you generally need all the navy techs? Also, what's your opinion on the Commerce and Industry tech trees stack up versus on another in HoD?

 

[austrianemporer]

Do you find as Japan that you generally need all the navy techs? Also, what's your opinion on the Commerce and Industry tech trees stack up versus on another in HoD?

No matter what, always go for Military- Industrial Complex (except maybe for Britain and Japan). For Japan itself, it is a toss up. Do you want to invade China and have a heavily industrialized economy or have an established global empire with advanced trading concepts? For the first one, do MIlitary INdustrial, for the second one, do the Sea Power and Merchant Marine.

 

[AmpsterMan]

Do you find as Japan that you generally need all the navy techs? Also, what's your opinion on the Commerce and Industry tech trees stack up versus on another in HoD?

Honestly, I find you generally don't need all the techs in the end. However, the people you are going to be contending with are Naval powers so every bit helps. As a general rule I prefer tge Tycoon Capitalist school because I think those give the novices bonuses.

The industry tech tree is what this game is all about, IMO. My usual strategy is to get whatever cultural tech i can first so i get the prestige bonuses. Then i try to get Ideology so i can maximise tech point generating. THEN i focus on education bonus.

It's only after I am caught up on these that I research other choices depending on what i want.

As Japan, it is important that i have the most advanced Capital ships available. This is because it increases my military score a lot. To ensure i get these, I run a heavy military Industrial complex.

That is, i first and foremost focus on Steamer ship factories and the requirements for those factories. I always run 100% spending on ship maintenance, so i try to match my supply of steamer ships to my demand. Next, I queue up like 20 ships to be built in a port so I always have a ship being built.

Rinse and repeat for my ground forces, though to a much lesser extent.

My final priority is Life needs and Everyday needs for my poor and middle class. This ensures that my militancy doesn't get too high.

Japan i think is such a fun nation to play because it allows you to do everything. It has very obvious goals (do what Japan did in WW2, but better) and a small amount of states so running State Capitalism or a Command Economy aren't a chore because of how many states you have.

 

[dmartin1982]

Japan i think is such a fun nation to play because it allows you to do everything. It has very obvious goals (do what Japan did in WW2, but better) and a small amount of states so running State Capitalism or a Command Economy aren't a chore because of how many states you have.

I'm truly having a blast with Japan---it might be my favorite game of Vicky yet. I'm just wondering if I could still 'max naval' without taking Sea Power and the Merchant Marine. After all, at some point you gotta put boots on the ground. And the industry tech bonus is really enticing.

Then again, so too is having the world's best navy. Decisions, decisions...

 

[dmartin1982]

No matter what, always go for Military- Industrial Complex (except maybe for Britain and Japan). For Japan itself, it is a toss up. Do you want to invade China and have a heavily industrialized economy or have an established global empire with advanced trading concepts? For the first one, do MIlitary INdustrial, for the second one, do the Sea Power and Merchant Marine.

Right now, my goal is to assert Japanese power over Southeast Asia, Oceania, and the islands of the South Pacific. I am also tempted to war with Russia for the islands north of Japan that they colonized (which I have cores on), and perhaps take Alaska from them before they sell it to the Americans. The goal being to establish Japanese hegemony over the aforesaid regions.

With that in mind, would you recommend either Military-Industrial Complex or Sea Power and the Merchant Marine?

 

[SknerusMck]

Military-Industrial Complex all the way B|.

You don't need every Naval tech, they are quite useless IMO. If you want to beat AI navy, get more ships, not Naval techs ;_;.

PS. Ofc you will need SOME techs from 1st and 2nd branch, but you will need all the military and industrial techs .

 

[austrianemporer]

Right now, my goal is to assert Japanese power over Southeast Asia, Oceania, and the islands of the South Pacific. I am also tempted to war with Russia for the islands north of Japan that they colonized (which I have cores on), and perhaps take Alaska from them before they sell it to the Americans. The goal being to establish Japanese hegemony over the aforesaid regions.

With that in mind, would you recommend either Military-Industrial Complex or Sea Power and the Merchant Marine?

If you're fighting Britain, then take Sea Power. If you're fighting USA or Russia, take Military Industrial. If fighting France or Netherlands, its a toss up.

 

[SknerusMck]

The British brilliant naval generals make me really unsure about taking the Sea Power ;P.

 

[austrianemporer]

The British brilliant naval generals make me really unsure about taking the Sea Power ;P.

Ironically, when I play, my generals are horrible but my admirals are amazing. (Confirmation bias )

 

[dmartin1982]

If you're fighting Britain, then take Sea Power. If you're fighting USA or Russia, take Military Industrial. If fighting France or Netherlands, its a toss up.

Yes, this seems to have proven true. So I ultimately took Sea Power and the Merchant Marine---it seemed to fit the Japan I was creating, and I knew I'd need a grand navy to stop the European powers from ever reaching sacred Japan, as well as facilitating my 'island hopping' strategy in Southeast Asia and the South Pacific. Even still, I knew I'd miss the bonuses to land tech and industry provided by Military Industrial Complex. But I had made my choice, so it was time to live with it.

I finally concluded my war with France-Spain-Netherlands when I shipped an expeditionary force up the coast of Africa and took the Canaries from Spain. In that, I saw the power of a navy to ship troops to take island provinces from the enemy, while the grand navy blockaded their mainland.

Several years later, I found myself going to war with my rival for the #5 great power slot: Russia. They'd colonized the two islands north of Japan that I had cores on. I took those, along with the Kamchatka Peninsula (leaving a unit to sit in the mountains where it connects to the mainland, thus forming a strong defensive position). That done, I decided to land some forces near Vladivostok and the surrounding area to deal with Russian armies stacking up there. That's where I ran into trouble. My Japanese armies struggled to defeat their Russian counterparts in battle after battle. This may have been (at least in part) due to me not having a good enough artillery-infantry/cavalry ratio, but it took serious efforts to gain ground in the mainland. That's when I realized that my Japanese army would likely be inferior to my European counterparts for much, if not all of the game.

This was further reinforced when a French (allied with Russia) convoy managed to sneak through my naval line and land an army in Japan. Again, I was outgunned in artillery, and again I struggled to take it down.

I know I will need a large navy if I ever plan to take on British or American holdings in the region. Yet I can't help but wonder if I made the right choice. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated!

 

[Black_Shade]

Naval is really never a good choice, simply because you don't need to research all the techs in the tree to get the best ships. The army techs are all required.

 

[dmartin1982]

Naval is really never a good choice, simply because you don't need to research all the techs in the tree to get the best ships. The army techs are all required.

Yes, I think I came to that realization a tad too late. Do you think it would be worth the prestige hit to switch over to Military-Industrial Complex?

 

[AmpsterMan]

One of the things i like about Victoria is how it makes you confront the same problems historical figures encountered. Japan historically had a divide between the Army and the Navy. I'm a proponent of the naval approach, but it also means you have to limit your scope.

Who are your main rivals? Who is competing with you? It's not Russia. Russia has nothing you need (except those cores). It's not UK (not yet). It's China. China is your main nemesis. As such, your early game is all about deafeating your main rival. MIC helps here because China is all a land war. However, China is also filled with Irregulars. China is a tough fight, but it is the ONLY Asian power that can stand a chance against you.

This might make you think MIC is better, but think about after China. After taking down China, your main rival is your poor RGOs! The way to rectify this is via a large Colonial Empire. Thankfully, all the RGOs you need are at your doorstep. Oil in Indonesia and Borneo, Coal and Iron in Korea and Machuria, Coffee and Tea in Java and Sumatra, and Luxury Wood and Silk in China and Indochina.

Notice how these places are all Islamds. If you play your cards right, you can fight wars and make sure any foreign powers never even touch your colonial holdings. Once it gets to late game and you want to take on the UK for India, then just wait for some movement to sprout up in Europe, and join the side against Britain. U.S. probably won't care and any colonial powers that go against you will have to go through your navy. The ONLY exception is Russia, but with them you fight a war of attrition in Manchuria using soldiers, farmers, and laborers conscripted from Manchuria.

Honestly, you can't go wrong with MIC, and I agree that Army techs are usually worth more than Navy techs. Thing is, Japan, like Britain, have no territorial enemies. All of their wars are in foeign areas and as such, you can levetage your navy way more than any other country.

 

[dmartin1982]

One of the things i like about Victoria is how it makes you confront the same problems historical figures encountered. Japan historically had a divide between the Army and the Navy. I'm a proponent of the naval approach, but it also means you have to limit your scope.
...
Honestly, you can't go wrong with MIC, and I agree that Army techs are usually worth more than Navy techs. Thing is, Japan, like Britain, have no territorial enemies. All of their wars are in foeign areas and as such, you can levetage your navy way more than any other country.

Very good points, AmpsterMan. I've pondered it, and I will stick with Sea Power and the Merchant Marine in my current game, for better or worse. As you point out, it certainly does have its advantages. And, frankly, the more navy tech I have, the more unstoppable Japan will become. Almost all of her empire can be protected by the navy, which makes it my first line of defense against European great powers. That will allow me, for the most part, to fight only when and where I want to with my slightly inferior army.

Speaking of which, as this is my first time back to Vicky 2 in a long time, do you have any tips on army composition for me? I'm wondering if I'm not as far behind the Euros as I might have feared, and that I might simply not have used the best composition for my armies.

 

[Shatterfury]

Very good points, AmpsterMan. I've pondered it, and I will stick with Sea Power and the Merchant Marine in my current game, for better or worse. As you point out, it certainly does have its advantages. And, frankly, the more navy tech I have, the more unstoppable Japan will become. Almost all of her empire can be protected by the navy, which makes it my first line of defense against European great powers. That will allow me, for the most part, to fight only when and where I want to with my slightly inferior army.

Speaking of which, as this is my first time back to Vicky 2 in a long time, do you have any tips on army composition for me? I'm wondering if I'm not as far behind the Euros as I might have feared, and that I might simply not have used the best composition for my armies.

You could release Manchuria as a vassal, don`t forget to free the land the Russians took. They will be able to get much more troops out of those lands and they are well situated to block a potential Russian advance in China. It will be a powerful deterrent to Russian aggression.

It all depends on how you play the game.
If you want to wreck anyone and be kind of gamey you can take on UK and even USA.

In PDM Japan has a unique tech for themselves.

 

[austrianemporer]

Really...

If you don't take naval, then Britain will outpace you in naval tech and as naval tech advances, ships get buffed tremendously. A battleship can take on a dreadnought.

However, since you were fighting Russia and the Chinese, why didn't you take Military Industrial?

 

[austrianemporer]

Very good points, AmpsterMan. I've pondered it, and I will stick with Sea Power and the Merchant Marine in my current game, for better or worse. As you point out, it certainly does have its advantages. And, frankly, the more navy tech I have, the more unstoppable Japan will become. Almost all of her empire can be protected by the navy, which makes it my first line of defense against European great powers. That will allow me, for the most part, to fight only when and where I want to with my slightly inferior army.

Speaking of which, as this is my first time back to Vicky 2 in a long time, do you have any tips on army composition for me? I'm wondering if I'm not as far behind the Euros as I might have feared, and that I might simply not have used the best composition for my armies.

Army Composition: Slightly less artillery than infantry (because infantry take more casualties but artillery does the damage), two or three cavalry for the flanks (More for huge armies).

Late game, same composition. However, elite armies may have tanks and aeroplanes. Tanks and aeroplanes will fight in the front and take many casualties but are the best units in the game.

 

[Shatterfury]

Really...

If you don't take naval, then Britain will outpace you in naval tech and as naval tech advances, ships get buffed tremendously. A battleship can take on a dreadnought.

However, since you were fighting Russia and the Chinese, why didn't you take Military Industrial?

Their navy might be scattered around the globe, if he makes a stack of doom he can take Australia and New Zealand with ease.
Sure, it`s gamey and it wouldn`t happen in reality but you can pull it off in game.