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cdat said:
You guessed the true answer out of all these posts! You win a cookie! How true you are, sir. The US Army took the "Best" tank and the "Best" crews, put them together (with no practice or training) and pitted them against the 2nd "best" tanks and crews, who knew how to fight in their armored beasts and knew the quirks and shortcomings. The "experienced" team smoked the "BEST". Now, if they had taken the A2's, teamed them up with the crews and let them practice for a year, the outcome would of been different I think. For the record, everyone in the Army trains by M1A2 gunnery standards, even those (the National Guard) that still have old M1's with the 105mm. Even with the old weapon platform, these tankers who train ALOT still qualify by the latest standards, without all the new fangdangled equipment. ;)

Thanks for the cookie ... mmmm ... did a search of my //windows/tmp directory and could not find it! ;) cookie monster must have got to it B4 i did! ;(

SFC, my ol' man wore those same stripes for a bit on his way to MSG back in the HOI days. You get by this way, you give a holler. Got a few boys around here that i bet were blue team members when you were stationed there at Ft. Hood. Might be your ass kicking saved their lives a time or two as they visited Iraq back a few years ago, and dang if they didn't all get called up again this time [but fortunately too valuable for front lines now, they ate sand in the rear].

Or maybe i'll shout at you sometime. got me a buncha kin back that way, mostly in and around Macomb County and in Iron Mountain. Flint be right on the way between 'em ... what's the bevereage these days? i hear that pabst is gone now ...

;)
 

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Exel said:
I don't really think the Gulf and Iraq wars counts as real tank vs tank combat experience for the coalition's forces. Iraq had only obsolete tanks, especially so in the last years war. No modern tank has fought against adversaries of equal level. I mean no disrespect for cdat or other veterans, but really, engaging T-55s or even T-72s (old, obsolete models like the Iraqi ones) with M1 Abrams or Challengers in shooting range conditions doesn't require much skill from the crews of the latter vehicles. I dare claim that the experience received from such an engagement wouldn't be worth much in a battle between, say, Abrams' and T-90s in, for example, Eastern European terrain.

I'm sorry to disagree here, vehemently. I think a lot of other people here will too.

There are always two types of soldiers: those who have seen the elephant and those who haven't. And trust me until you have, you cannot understand what that means. it is like a man will never understand having a baby to the same level a woman does. you can sympathise, empathise, and hypothesize; but you do not know.

it is also an accepted fact that 'war games', like those practiced at Ft. Hood, can go a long way to bringing soldiers up to this level. In fact studies published state that there is no better dollar spent than those spent in these training centers in terms of saving lives on a battle field.

But, talk to any veteran, including those who have been through Ft. Hood, and they'll tell you to a man: it ain't the same. Most veteran crews from either Gulf War is a better crew in combat than those who have not been. Why? a lot of reasons, but i'll just give you one. First time in combat a man freezes for a split second. can't help it. you seen the elephant, you freeze less. in a tank engagement, in the opening moments, that will decide for many who stays and who walks away. Ft. Hood helps reduce that freeze.

those of you who keep harping on better equipment = win had better go back and re-read cdat's post on page one of this thread. re-read and commit to memory. Tier 2 tanks repeatedly wiped out Tier 1 tanks. did so under a variety of conditions, and at contrary odds, even while attacking.
 

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I still think that the "best tank" point is mute when you consider this:

untitled.bmp
 

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Exel said:
I don't really think the Gulf and Iraq wars counts as real tank vs tank combat experience for the coalition's forces. Iraq had only obsolete tanks, especially so in the last years war. No modern tank has fought against adversaries of equal level. I mean no disrespect for cdat or other veterans, but really, engaging T-55s or even T-72s (old, obsolete models like the Iraqi ones) with M1 Abrams or Challengers in shooting range conditions doesn't require much skill from the crews of the latter vehicles. I dare claim that the experience received from such an engagement wouldn't be worth much in a battle between, say, Abrams' and T-90s in, for example, Eastern European terrain.

While I agree that for the most part "shooting range" conditions existed, there were certainly a number of engagements where tanks got in close combat situations at ranges where a T-55/T-72 could have knocked out an M1. Here is an excerpt from a MG Gulf War Vet about one such encounter.

"I said: "My company engaged Iraqi T-55's at point blank (450 meters) range in a sandstorm along the Basra-Baghdad highway during Desert Storm."

I take that back. I was re-reading my notebooks from Desert Storm. The engagement with T-55's in a sandstorm was at Jalibah, not on the Basra-Baghdad Highway. So that would be day two, about 40 hours after we crossed the line of departure. Other than that it's accurate. I have a note that our first engagement was at 455 meters, which is a knife fight for an M1. The sabot barely has time to discard before steel on target. Scary , even a T55 potentially could penetrate an M1A1 at that range, especially if it could get a shot on the flank aspect."
 

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cdat said:
I don't post AAR's 'cause my spelling sucks, so heres a crash course on a little known fact on the M1A2.
There was once a tanker in the US Army named Cdat. He was stationed at Ft. Hood, Texas. The largest Armored froce concentrated in on place in the world. The Army was in the first/only stages of purchasing the M1A2 Abrams tank. At that time they were using the M1A1 Common Heavy varient of the Abrams. Cdat was part of the "opposing force" or in other terms "the bad guys". The "good guys" had 16 M1A2's to play with. The bad guys had 8 M1A1's to die with. Every other day, the good guys were given a mission either to defend, assault, move to contact or other such manuvers to put the newest tank through its paces. The good guys had 24 hours to come up with a plan, recon the area and prep for the oncoming battle. After they were prepared to do battle, they posted a guard or twenty around their beasts and went back to the barraks to sh#t/shower/shave and enjoy a night out on the town with the General Dynamic support team that was there to correct any issues/problems with their new pride & joy. The bad guys stayed in the field and waited for the next mission because they were trying to test their limits of stress. Day 2, first battle. Good defend / bad assault. Final tally = 16 M1A2's dead / 4 M1A1's dead. Not good to the congressmen watching from a ridge overlooking the fiasco. Day 4, repeat of 1st battle. Final tally = 16 M1A2's dead / 2 M1A1's dead. On to next battle. Day 6, MiA1's defend / M1A2's assault. Final tally = 16 M1A2's dead / 0 M1A1's dead. Must be that Cdat and friends are cheating. In come the cavalry from 2nd Armored Divison to verify our MILES ( laser tag) systems were tamper proof and working correctly. Next battle, this battle takes place a week later as Good team practices it over and over till they have it down pat. Good defends, Bad attacks. Bad team is reduced to six tanks to make it more of a challenge (2/1 odds were pretty easy). Place of battle = valley with sparse scrub brush. Defenders near a ridge line with unobstructed view for 2 miles down the valley center. Final tally = 3 M1A1's dead / 15 M1A2's dead. The last M1A2 was given orders to withdraw from the position before it was over run. Only smart thing they've done so far. Halt put on war games. Congressmen come to our Assembly Area and inform us that if the M1A2 keeps losing that congress will pull the plug on the M1A2 program and that none of us want that. A battle a week later. Movement to contact ( both forces start moving toward one another and once contact is made its a free for all). The bad guys lose some tanks and are given M113's, an old APC with no tank killing capibilities. 3 M113's and 3 M1A1's to 16 M1A2's. Final tally = 3 M113's & 1 M1A1 killed / 16 M1A2's killed. Now a general comes to the assembly area ( actually 3 generals, but since one was a four star, no one paid attention to the other two). He gives Cdat & friends a direct order to die in the next battle or our careers are over. Cdat refuses and is withdrawn from the battle by his commander. Last battle, 3 M1A1's & 3 M113's on the defense against 16 M1A2's on the offense. As the A2's swarm over the objective they notice all the bad guys are still in their sleeping bags or eating poogy bait and no one is defending squat (just following orders). The A2's win, end of mission, the Army buys the A2. Cdat takes a buy-out and leaves the Army after 12 + years of service ( a very handsom buy out/off). Cdat joins the National Guard (Nasty Girls) finishes his last 8 years & retires and also gets hired by GM, who pays him 5 times what he made in the Army. The End. I'm not saying this is true but you never know?! ;)

P.S. Cdat retired a SFC/ E-7. He was a master gunner (expert on weapons systems and everything to do with the turret/fire control systems and electronics). He was last seen near Flint, Michigan. :rolleyes:

Cdat, I was stationed at Ft. Hood when the first Armor battalion switched over to the M1A2. I was happily leaving the Army shortly there after as I was totally unimpressed with the unit I had been assigned and after hearing the company groan and moan over having to pull 25% security for one whole night on a screen line I realized that the Army in the US was vastly different than the Army in Germany I decided that it was time for me to say bye-bye to Army green. I personally saw many similar moronic stunts pulled like the one you described in your story. I would not be surprised however if the biggest problem with the M1A2 opponent at the time was not just an equipment issue but a leadership issue as well. I was appalled at how uniformly bad leadership was at my battalion at the time. During my three years in Germany we never had one case of an AWOL soldier, and we had a E-7 with a major Napoleonic complex, and my year at Hood we had five different AWOL cases. It was not just my battalion either; an infantry company that we teamed up with had four AWOL cases for one field problem. I never did get to work on an M1A2 so I can’t say diffinitavly if it was a good tank or not but I suspect that from what you described that the enemy commander had the tactical abilities of a Rock. Hmmm lemme seee bad guys on ridge, no cover fer me. I know! I charge protected enemy. Boy another great West Point education.
 

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PaxMondo said:
i know. anyone familiar with the logic behind this retirement? i don't see it, but i am not up on the facts ...

I think a lot of it is that this place is decidedly low tech. It's not sleek, stealthy, fast, or any of that. It's a down and dirty, basic attack plane.

The problem is, it's good at what it does. DAMN good. No F-16, F-15E(?), or F-18 is going to ever be as effective at close air support, period. Yes, the A-10 is slow and more vulnerable to ground fire, but it can take one hell of a punishment and keep flying. It's designed to be shot.

Anyway, I think the general population looks at that plane as being ugly and low tech, not what we went. The narrow minded polititians agree, and therefore the plane gets axed. It's a real shame, because the A-10 is an invaluable asset as far as I'm concerned. I imagine most tankers and infantry would definitely agree that they'd love to have a few A-10's on thier side anytime...
 

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enragedcow said:
I think a lot of it is that this place is decidedly low tech. It's not sleek, stealthy, fast, or any of that. It's a down and dirty, basic attack plane.

The problem is, it's good at what it does. DAMN good. No F-16, F-15E(?), or F-18 is going to ever be as effective at close air support, period. Yes, the A-10 is slow and more vulnerable to ground fire, but it can take one hell of a punishment and keep flying. It's designed to be shot.

Anyway, I think the general population looks at that plane as being ugly and low tech, not what we went. The narrow minded polititians agree, and therefore the plane gets axed. It's a real shame, because the A-10 is an invaluable asset as far as I'm concerned. I imagine most tankers and infantry would definitely agree that they'd love to have a few A-10's on thier side anytime...

So if i read this right the reason is S-T-U-P-I-D. right? time to talk with a couple congressman....
 

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PaxMondo said:
So if i read this right the reason is S-T-U-P-I-D. right? time to talk with a couple congressman....

The A-10 is being axed for 2 reasons

1. Fairchild doesn't have the stroke in congress that General Dynamics (maker of the F-16) has. GD bought a few congressmen and convinced them that a ground attack version of the F-16 would be "better".

2. The current Air Force leadership is made up of Viet Nam-era fighter jockeys, who hated getting their hands dirty with low and slow (thats how you end up in the Hanoi Hilton, dontcha know?) and prefer High and Fast. Who cares whether you are bombing the right target? Thats for the FAC to decide. Just drop your load and run like hell out of the hot zone.

Fairchild can thank Gulf War 1 for surviving into the 21st century. Without it, the A-10 would have been mothballed by '93 (since there was no more Red Army west of the Bug)
 
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The logic behind the retirement is that the USAF needs the funds for this plane for other projects. The "problem" of the A10 is that it's not as versatile as an F16 or F35, but is has made it an incredible attack aircraft
I imagine most tankers and infantry would definitely agree that they'd love to have a few A-10's on thier side anytime...
After a week of fighting in GulfWarII 80 or 90% of requests for CAS, asking for a specific type, asked for the A10. That's how much the units on the ground like the A10.
And vulnerable, to other aicraft perhaps, but the amount of damage this aircraft can is truly amazing, holes in the wing don't matter, hydraulics not functioning, there's always manual control, part of the tail or an engine shot to pieces, we've got one left. I can't upload any pictures, but a quick search on the web should give you some indication of what this plane can take. And yes, it is ugly, so ugly it becomes beautiful again.
Soory for the rant, I just love this plane ;) .
 

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mkultra said:
Shouldn't the job of the A-10 be handled by helicopters like the Apache anyway?

Or are they tasked for fundamentally different missions?

The main reason the A-10 is getting phased out is the fact that the Air Force would prefer not to do close air support. They prefer the air superiority missions more. You can’t become an ace blasting tanks on the ground. Helicopters do not have a very high survivability rate when flying CAS. A fast moving jet has advantages over a slow moving helicopter. If it wasn’t for the fact that the Army controls its own helicopters and not the Air Force I don’t think that the US would even have attack helicopters. On a side note I got dive bombed by an F-16 on a training mission and it made me very happy that the U.S. Air Force is the best most capable Air Force in the world. Nothing gives you the willies like feeling the exhaust heat from a jet as it pulls out of its dive and knowing that if it had bombs on it you would be one very crispy critter.
 

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Micah Goodman 2 said:
The main reason the A-10 is getting phased out is the fact that the Air Force would prefer not to do close air support. They prefer the air superiority missions more. You can’t become an ace blasting tanks on the ground. Helicopters do not have a very high survivability rate when flying CAS. A fast moving jet has advantages over a slow moving helicopter. If it wasn’t for the fact that the Army controls its own helicopters and not the Air Force I don’t think that the US would even have attack helicopters. On a side note I got dive bombed by an F-16 on a training mission and it made me very happy that the U.S. Air Force is the best most capable Air Force in the world. Nothing gives you the willies like feeling the exhaust heat from a jet as it pulls out of its dive and knowing that if it had bombs on it you would be one very crispy critter.

Mmm interesting. Thanks
:)
 

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Ilkhold said:
Interesting, I wonder if you know how effective these are for stopping tanks:
Hockerlinie_-_Grossenvergleich_Mitte.jpg

Hockerlinie_-_Grossenvergleich_hinten.jpg


EDIT: Found some better pictures. The person on both pictures is about 1,9m

That's why god invented the B-52! ;)
 

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We have A-10's fly into my base sometimes. I went out with our digital camera, to add them to the collection. Standing right in front of those 7 30mm barrels is enough to make you really nervous - even though I knew it wasn't armed and ready, much less loaded - probably. But seriously, standing right in front of that gun is a very uneasy feeling.

But still, even if it had miraculously 'gone off' somehow, it's not like I would have ever even known what hit me. Really not a bad way to die, when you think about it. Your whole head just sort of disappears - instantly. Can't be too painful.

I think I'll go play Jane's 'USAF', and load up a mission flying the A-10, and take out a bunch of C-5's. See how many shots each one can take, before the whole thing is toast. (not many at all, usually)