Best Tank

[Easy-Kill]

Sihouette:

Images

P.S. i make this not to talk anybody down, but to clarify a definition of a silhoutte better, for the fact i understood that my words were wrongly interpreted...

Your words were not wrongly interpreted, they were just wrong. Now you are using top down photos to try and determine the sillhouette of the vehicle, and merely proving my point for me. Look at the difference in shape, the jagdpanther is a nice undefined shape, it just the silhouette alone doesn't identify it as a tank, whereas the tank ones clearly look like a tank.

Infact. the pictures are even proving that height alone means absolutely nothing, it's more the shape.

I don't even know what you are trying to say anymore, first of all it was that the height made the T34 have a better silhouette, whereas now you are saying it doesn;t ? Putting out pictures with little red lines around them trying to make out you are an expert or something? What exactly are you trying to prove?

how about you get a face on picture of a T34 and black out the T34, and do the same with a picture of a Jagdpanther, black it out make it to scale and then we can all see the defined silhouette of the two.

 

[Vladson]

My words were the reaction to your critics when you said that i don`t understand what silhouette is... this was after my post where i wrote that a silhouette of a ANY tank is bigger when you look from above a hill for example... (these previous pics demonstrated this)...

Now about shapes and other. First let me give you some figures:
T-34 Model 1943
General characteristics:
Length 6.75 m
Width 3.00 m
Height 2.45 m
Weight 30.9 tonnes

Jagdpanther
General characteristics:
Length 6.9 m
Width 3.4 m
Height 2.7 m
Weight 50.15 tonnes

now to the pics:
T-34:


JagdPanther:


T-34 FREE ZONES comparing to Jagtpanther silhouette:


schemes aren`t scaled so you should look at heigths and lengths first to understand the real size, and compare silhouettes...

P.S. recommend to those who consider T-34 not the best)))
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/t34.htm

 

[Emperor of Europe]

Can anyone tell me why there's a discussion about the relative silhouettes of the T-34 and the Jagdpanther? Now it's up to you of course, but wouldn't it make more sense to compare the T-34 vs. Pz-IV or V? Or JS-122 vs. Jagdpanther?

rgds/EoE

 

[Vladson]

Can anyone tell me why there's a discussion about the relative silhouettes of the T-34 and the Jagdpanther? Now it's up to you of course, but wouldn't it make more sense to compare the T-34 vs. Pz-IV or V? Or JS-122 vs. Jagdpanther?

rgds/EoE

cause Easy-Kill wants to make such comparisons, since we argued that a "defensive" tank (tank destroyer) should be higher and bigger than an "attacking tank" (for expl T-34)

 

[Emperor of Europe]

cause Easy-Kill wants to make such comparisons, since we argued that a "defensive" tank (tank destroyer) should be higher and bigger than an "attacking tank" (for expl T-34)

Well, it flies pretty much in the face of all tank design ideas that high is good. The Jagdpanther had the height it had, because they couldn't make it lower. But I guess we don't disagree about that.

rgds/EoE

 

[Easy-Kill]

cause Easy-Kill wants to make such comparisons, since we argued that a "defensive" tank (tank destroyer) should be higher and bigger than an "attacking tank" (for expl T-34)

Do you not know how to read or something? Go back a few posts and read what I actually put.

*Shakes head and goes to make some tea*

 

[Vladson]

Well, it flies pretty much in the face of all tank design ideas that high is good. The Jagdpanther had the height it had, because they couldn't make it lower. But I guess we don't disagree about that.

rgds/EoE

but then explain me please why the height is good? but plz don`t say that because it gives you an additional viewing distance or helps you to see the infantry with Panzefaust behind the House or in the bushes...

Do you not know how to read or something? Go back a few posts and read what I actually put.

*Shakes head and goes to make some tea*

so what will be your reply to my post with Jagdpanther and T-34? height doesn`t make any sense?

 

[Emperor of Europe]

but then explain me please why the height is good? but plz don`t say that because it gives you an additional viewing distance or helps you to see the infantry with Panzefaust behind the House or in the bushes...

Ouch, you've just had a high-speed accident with the language barrier. I never said height is good, I said height is bad. So we agree, we don't disagree.

rgds/EoE

 

[Vladson]

Ouch, you've just had a high-speed accident with the language barrier. I never said height is good, I said height is bad. So we agree, we don't disagree.

rgds/EoE

Hm, indeed... excuse me...
but you said "it flies pretty much in the face of all tank design ideas that high is good"... why then?

 

[talin]

but you said "it flies pretty much in the face of all tank design ideas that high is good"

He is saying that height is a bad idea.

 

[Easy-Kill]

but then explain me please why the height is good? but plz don`t say that because it gives you an additional viewing distance or helps you to see the infantry with Panzefaust behind the House or in the bushes...



so what will be your reply to my post with Jagdpanther and T-34? height doesn`t make any sense?

I am arguing that the T34 isn't the best tank because it is low to the ground. which you are, infact you are claiming a small silhouette from nothing more than the height above ground.

I am simply stating that there are more things than height to the silhouette AND that sometimes the benefits from extra hight outweigh the downside, particularly with regards to various offensive and defensive capabilities and combined with industrial reasons.

Anyone who thinks a subset of features make the best tank has a severe lack of imagination and singular dimension intellect.

 

[Vladson]

I am arguing that the T34 isn't the best tank because it is low to the ground. which you are, infact you are claiming a small silhouette from nothing more than the height above ground.

I am simply stating that there are more things than height to the silhouette AND that sometimes the benefits from extra hight outweigh the downside, particularly with regards to various offensive and defensive capabilities and combined with industrial reasons.

Anyone who thinks a subset of features make the best tank has a severe lack of imagination and singular dimension intellect.

I claim a small silhouette from a square inside the borders of the viewed object... you can clearly see that T-34 has smaller square "inside" a silhouette than one of Jagpanther...
as to Jagtpnather the height plays a significant role, since it has a massive turret, the additional height would add to the "square of a silhouette" significantly... (just compare the size of the Jagtpanther and T-34, it can be best done comparing to people standing near the tank)

Of course low silhoutte alone didn`t make T-34 the best tank, but it was one of it`s main features that were highly appreciated by the Germans at it`s true value (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/t34.htm) ...

by the way what are the benefits from extra height? but plz don`t give these two examples i have mentioned above, since they are not valid...

 

[Exel]

Silhouette is the target area the enemy can see (and hit). It's one of many factors to define how easily you are spotted and identified and how easy it is for the enemy to hit you.

Now can we move on from the silhouette debate?

 

[cdat]

Heigth should only really come into play on the defense. Distance of the main gun for max depression can also play a role on how far you can lower the main gun and fire to insure the breech does not impact with the interior turret ceiling with it's recoil. This is especially important when defending a ridgeline when you shoot down into a valley or depression. As some modern Russian tankers are also finding out, when utilizing stabilization on the offense, rough terrain can seriously hamper keeping the gun on the target as the tank hull is moving up and down and the main gun stablization is attempting to keep it's track when that dreaded clearnance switch stops the gun from further depression.

 

[cdat]

This is what I am attempting to explain:

 

[cdat]

Silhouette is the target area the enemy can see (and hit). It's one of many factors to define how easily you are spotted and identified and how easy it is for the enemy to hit you.

Now can we move on from the silhouette debate?

No, we can't.

Not entirely true. You can also see the engine exhaust and see the TC's head if he is hiding behind a berm and fire at the KNOWN vehicle mass and with the proper ammo, penetrate the dirt/sand and still destroy the tank behind it.

As this picture would show, you can see the turret front, which happens to be the most heavily armored part of the tank and you will not kill it if you shoot at it and hit it here. This is called the visible mass or as you say, the silhouette.

Now, if you should aim slightly below the visible mass and aim at center of the known mass, you should be aiming at what we call (An American term) the 'catchers mitt'. This is the ideal spot to hit. Where the turret and hull meet. The weakest point on any tank.

 

[Exel]

You can also see the engine exhaust and see the TC's head if he is hiding behind a berm and fire at the KNOWN vehicle mass and with the proper ammo, penetrate the dirt/sand and still destroy the tank behind it.

True. But the known vehicle mass does not make a silhouette for you to actually see if it's not visible (duh).

 

[Vladson]

True. But the known vehicle mass does not make a silhouette for you to actually see if it's not visible (duh).

the silhuette is not a VISIBLE square, it`s a square you can hit from you angle of view...

 

[cdat]

True. But the known vehicle mass does not make a silhouette for you to actually see if it's not visible (duh).

I'd also argue this point because seeing just certain parts of a vehicle can tell you what it is. As seen in the turret down pictures above. I can tell it's an M1IP but can everyone? They should if they're going to war. Can I still kill that tank? Yes, I can.

 

[Exel]

Time to revive the longest running history thread of these fora.

Two new Leopards going operational in Afghanistan to fight it out with the Taleban:



Danish Leopard 2A5DK

Canadian Leopard 2A6M CAN
(note the old Leopard C2 on the left)