Best support companies for Infantry?
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As calculated in the last recon topic, in full SF doctrine both side:
- If no one have recon advantage, the attacker lost average 2% its damage because of defender's counter tactics.
- If defender win recon, the attacker lost another 2%.
- If attacker win recon, they get +3% thanks to increase chance of Breakthrough tactics.
- So the difference between losing and winning recon is roughly 5% damage of the attacker.
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The real optional support:
- AA: if we move to line AA, we get more benefit but more cost. This is probably the 1st to move to line if we need a slot, but AA remain important.
- Horse recon: can be replace by light tank recon for more attack and breakthrough, good for mountain and marines. Or by MOT recon to extra defense and higher recon stats, good for AT divisions. In each province we need only 1 division with recon stats, the higher the better.
In general, the way of the infantry is go cheap but number numerous.
- AA: if we move to line AA, we get more benefit but more cost. This is probably the 1st to move to line if we need a slot, but AA remain important.
- Horse recon: can be replace by light tank recon for more attack and breakthrough, good for mountain and marines. Or by MOT recon to extra defense and higher recon stats, good for AT divisions. In each province we need only 1 division with recon stats, the higher the better.
In general, the way of the infantry is go cheap but number numerous.
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Not really any reason to use line aa over support on inf
Light tank recon in inf isn't really worth it, just make bricks instead
We're getting pretty far into the weeds and away from OP's original query:
1. Is probably the most important. Templates that are viable in SP are often marginal at best in MP, and vice versa.
2. Even among majors, there is a fair bit of variety in starting templates, industry, research resources, and army XP sources -- all of which make certain templates more or less viable.
3. The answer "yes" is kind of implied by the way that the query is phrased, but it's worth checking to be sure.
Strictly answering the original query: support companies I'd recommend for a 7/2, I would add (in order): support AA, engineers, and support artillery. (I'd also recommend a 9/1 over a 7/2 since the combat width changes from the Barbarossa update.)
The answer to that question depends on the answer to other questions:
- Single player, co-op, or competitive MP?
- What country is OP playing?
- Is OP looking for a single template to do everything, or will they use other templates for other tasks, and this is just line filler/area defense?
1. Is probably the most important. Templates that are viable in SP are often marginal at best in MP, and vice versa.
2. Even among majors, there is a fair bit of variety in starting templates, industry, research resources, and army XP sources -- all of which make certain templates more or less viable.
3. The answer "yes" is kind of implied by the way that the query is phrased, but it's worth checking to be sure.
Strictly answering the original query: support companies I'd recommend for a 7/2, I would add (in order): support AA, engineers, and support artillery. (I'd also recommend a 9/1 over a 7/2 since the combat width changes from the Barbarossa update.)
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meta tanks will click non-banned infantry is probably more accurate.
non-meta or badly handled tanks will struggle, and i'm not so sure it'd be easy to click inf + td divs with meta tanks because they'd pierce and return non-trivial hard attacks.
in recent youtube video tommykay put out they did some 1v1 east vs west maps. you occasionally see tank divisions actually lose to at there, iirc because the focuses of the fake nations allow for '43 at. those rules/setups/buildups are far more limited than a typical game on a historical map, but observing that suggests to me that tanks in real game have at least some situations where running into inf + td (should outperform line at, albeit at more cost) could be trouble.
AI tank divisions in SP will not generally "click any inf stack easily" -- quite the contrary. AI tank divisions tend to be some combination of rare, poorly designed, under-equipped, and badly supplied. So much so that a good portion of the reason that support AA comes so highly recommended, is that it tends to make your line infantry divisions effectively unclickable by AI tanks.
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Huh? Why would i think the AI would build good tanks lmao? I was referering to the players tanks
I said on the previous page that inf isn't really worth pushing with, you should use tanks instead bruh
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I rarely encounter player tanks in SP. Remember?
Also...
That's fine, but that isn't an answer to the OP's query. Not every question calls for the "just push with tanks" answer.
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Huh? What does this have to do with anything?
I said tanks will click any inf stack easily, which is why you should use them
The AI pretty much only builds inf and tanks are the quickest way of breaking inf stacks
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I'd say it's the definition of optional, you can do just fine without it, but it can be very good depending on what you are doing and the situation. And particularly with the 7-2 the poster was asking about, following up on your AA point, since 7-2 doesn't have AA in line, then AA becomes kinda vital in support, which is the case for most infantry setups. Generally, and I do mean generally, support art/engineers/AA are going to be the mainstays and you can win just fine with them in SP for most countries because they are pretty great and simple to research/produce right away.
Ah, I see the source of confusion: you were talking about using tanks to break AI infantry, but I read it as needing specialized infantry to resist AI tanks.
As for using tanks, two resources that aren't always considered are research and player headspace. Using infantry bricks as line fodder and tanks for breakthrough requires considerably more of both than does a generic jack-of-all-trades infantry template.
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What support company is best depends on the divisions combat width. For CW 10 so are the best one ART, AA, TD etc that adds combat stats.
For really large divisions like 40 or so, so are Logistics, Hospital etc the ones that gives benefits to your line battalions better.
The really interesting bit would be to check where the cutoff point is when the buffs outperform the raw stat support.
For really large divisions like 40 or so, so are Logistics, Hospital etc the ones that gives benefits to your line battalions better.
The really interesting bit would be to check where the cutoff point is when the buffs outperform the raw stat support.
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in sp getting clicked by ai tanks isn't a thing. you only have to treat them differently than ai infantry if you get unlucky with where they happen to be, and even then it's not a big deal. rare is the time you even see tanks that do meaningful damage to your infantry. seeing more than one division of them at ~1/3 of target province width from the ai is also rare. both together + actually attacking you on plains so their armor bonus isn't wasted on sub-100 soft attack is a unicorn. you might see it now and then as france if you try to larp historical path france but hold successfully, otherwise you can mostly just disregard it.
similarly, breaking through line with infantry + driving mot through is barely slower and barely takes more casualties than tanks in sp (micro is a bit more involved i guess, but it's nothing oppressive in a game you can pause). i agree that there's no benefit to using resources on recon for infantry though. the best reason to use it is speed, and cav recon isn't helping enough there to make it worth using.
read 2 messages above you lol
and yes, there's no reason to use recon on inf, its not like it gives big stat bonuses to inf (maybe some defence but its not that big)
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Let me help. There's a lot of off the rails discussion in this thread.
I'll give some general power rankings for support companies with infantry divisions. But most of these power rankings come with caveats related to situations.
#1: Support ART: I have never seen a situation where the cost of support ART is not worth it. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has a situation where it's not helpful, but if I can afford nothing else, support ART is what I will build.
#2: ENG: Engineers are incredibly useful. The terrain bonuses are useful for any division, but since you can expect to defend with infantry quite a bit, the entrenchment is also worthwhile. Requires support equipment, so most countries can afford it.
#3: Support AA: Support AA does three things well in SP games. It reduces incoming damage from ground attack. It shoots down enemy planes (planes that cost more than the AA guns in many cases) in ground attack. And it provides some piercing without the tungsten cost. There are SP games I play where the support AA is basically my only AT.
#4: Rocket ART: The only reason it's not higher is that you have to research it. And while it's only a 1940 tech, you it branches off from other ART techs, so you can't just be like "I want RART right now" in 1936. This creates the weird situation where some countries simply never reach a point where there's time to widely implement them without prioritizing the appropriate research. If you are going Superior Firepower, though, I would move it up to #2 due to how that doctrine functions. Note: RART is boosted by rocket techs, but don't waste research on rocket techs just to boost this one support company. If you aren't using anything else from the rocket tree, don't push this path just to make RART better.
#5: LOG: I have a strong preference for LOG myself, but other players will point out that the supply consumption savings for INF divisions is marginal compared to the cost in some situations. Basically, if you keep fighting battles and noticing that supply is bad along large stretches of the front, grab LOG. But for minors that are not supply capped, it's not nearly as important. Note that when employed in large numbers, LOG can eat up a ton of trucks. Make sure you have a decent stockpile of trucks you can supply the LOG companies as well as motorize supply.
#6: AT: This is really optional in most SP games if you have AA in your INF formations. I don't consider the cost and resources (and research) to be worth it in a lot of cases. That being said, if you are really worried about enemy tanks, and you are a major power, then AT guns can be skipped and you should employ TDs in your infantry divisions instead. This will add armor to your infantry divisions and save a support slot.
#7: HOSP-SIG-MAINT: I don't place much value on these support companies in infantry divisions at all. The equipment recovery from MAINT might seem nice, but it's meager. You don't need MAINT To make cheap rifles more reliable anyway. I don't value SIG as I usually have enough reinforce chance from doctrines and other sources. And while HOSP has some benefits, it's only saving grace is saving you manpower as a minor or manpower hurt country.
#8: MP: Useless in most cases. But, I want to show off my HOI4 knowledge, so I will point out one of the few benefits of MP.
Look at the stats of this MP company.
Now look at the stats of this infantry battalion:
An MP support company is like a "support INF" unit with similar stats to an INF battalion without taking up width. It uses less supply than an INF battalion, but it costs more due to the support equipment.
So, if you ever said to yourself "My infantry divisions just aren't infantry enough. I want to provide even more INF without adding to the width" then MP support companies might be for you.
#9: Recon (any type) and flametanks: I consider them a waste on INF divisions due to opportunity cost. You also lose a ton of flame tanks on the attack if all INF divisions have flame tank support companies.
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imo learning and using proper micro is more taxing on headspace than division comp by a wide margin. planning out enough tanks in advance might not be players' cup of tea on the production side of things though. you either have to calc that while factoring when factories will finish + efficiency growth, or learn approximately what's right through trial and error.
research used to be more significant than it is now, where you can pick up basic medium chassis on at most two techs into the tree and slap on stuff from arty tree to make functional tanks, all while doctrines are no longer tying up research. for sp purposes, howitzer is better than medium cannon anyway, and that means you're literally using same techs as you would for using line arty aside from picking up the basic medium chassis.
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Agreed. Lots off the rails from OPs question.
Imo you can usually not go wrong with
AA
Logistics
Artillery
Engineers (90% of the time)
The rest are more niche depending on situation
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AA, arty and engineers are the bog standard for inf
logi? eh maybe if you fight in bad supply
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Usually you run into some form of bad supply outside Europe, and sometimes even in Europe. The campaign in Europe should be relatively short regardless, especially in SP.
The logistic system is the one global system that influences a lot of offensive power, and logistics are one of the few direct ways to mitigate it, so I value it quite high.
Ofc im not gonna put it in Atlantikwall divisions, but I think they are one of the more effective support companies because they directly mitigate one antagonistic system, especially later in the game.